What nationality is my Grandmother? #germany #france


Michele Lock
 

To the original poster - 

It is not entirely clear from your wording, so I'm asking this for clarification: In 1941, who was considered stateless by the French government? Was it your mother and your sisters? Or was it only your father from Poland? Also, can you clarify which individuals were deported in 1941, and which were able to stay in France?

It sounds like the German government considered your mother to be a French citizen simply because she was born on territory in 1905 that was ceded to France after WW I. However, it seems like the French government in 1941 considered your mother to either be a German citizen (because she was born in territory at the time part of Germany in 1905) or stateless because she and her family had fled Germany for France.

This brings to mind the confusion my immigrant grandmother had about what her nationality was when applying for US citizenship in 1946, after having immigrated in 1913 from Zagare, in what is now Lithuania, but was then the Russian Empire. She wrote down her nationality as 'Jewish', but my grandfather had her change it to Lithuanian in an amendment. However, she (and he) were never citizens of independent interwar Lithuania; they left before the founding of the country in 1920. They did not consider themselves to be either Russian or citizens of the Soviet Union, which by then had overtaken Lithiania again. Looking back on all this, they were really in a predicament, though luckily had no issues gaining US citizenship.

In 1946, there was no independent state of Israel, so one could not have Jewish nationality, or what is more properly termed Israeli nationality.
--
Michele Lock

Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock and Kalon/Kolon in Zagare/Joniskis/Gruzdziai, Lithuania
Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock in Plunge/Telsiai in Lithuania
Trisinsky/Trushinsky/Sturisky and Leybman in Dotnuva, Lithuania
Olitsky in Alytus, Suwalki, Poland/Lithuania
Gutman/Goodman in Czestochowa, Poland
Lavine/Lev/Lew in Trenton, New Jersey and Lida/Vilna gub., Belarus


Steve Low
 

An interesting question, possibly and potentially with a simple answer.

Debby, if your Grandmother mother was Jewish, then according to Zionist Israel, her nationality is Jewish. We know this because the reason there’s an Israel is because Jewish is the only nationality available to the Jews.

If you're Grandmother's mother was not Jewish, then you've asked "a very good question"!

Regards,
Steve Low

 


pascale.hollande@...
 

Your Grandmother moved to France in 1925... where ? which town ? Access to french censuses 1926, 1931, 1936 on line, if you know where. You can maybe give us their names... births, and  place of birth, I can try to help you.
Pascale Hollande
Monnetier, France


David Harrison
 

Your Grandmother might have become Polish upon her marriage to a Pole, or she might have had dual nationality Polish and German. The Germans may have regarded the family as French without respecting family wishes because their home was now in France. without considering what it had previously been.
David Harrison
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Debby Gincig Painter via groups.jewishgen.org <gincig=yahoo.com@...>
Sent: 19 July 2021 17:00
To: Jewish Gen <main@...>
Subject: [JewishGen.org] What nationality is my Grandmother? #germany #france
 
My Grandmother was born in Alsace before the WWI when it was still Germany. (1905. Her birth certificate is in German.) After the war, when France was awarded back the two provinces of Alsace-Lorraine, her father moved the family to Germany because they did not want to be French citizens. However, the 1921 German Census (only one I have found so far), does lists them as French.

In 1925, she married my Grandfather (he was Polish) and moved to France. When deportations began there, they considered stateless and deported (7/1942) but my Mother and her 3 sisters were not because they were French citizens and French citizens were not being deported yet so it seems that the French didn't consider her French or she won't have been deported at that time. German records I found list place of birth (sometimes with incorrect birthdate) but never citizenship. 

I have not found French censuses online for the years 1925-1941 to find out what citizenship my Grandmother was considered after she moved back to France, during the war or if had it changed status because of the war and her place/time of birth. Any ideas on how to find out? Thank you.

Thank you
Debby Painter


Debby Gincig Painter
 

My Grandmother was born in Alsace before the WWI when it was still Germany. (1905. Her birth certificate is in German.) After the war, when France was awarded back the two provinces of Alsace-Lorraine, her father moved the family to Germany because they did not want to be French citizens. However, the 1921 German Census (only one I have found so far), does lists them as French.

In 1925, she married my Grandfather (he was Polish) and moved to France. When deportations began there, they considered stateless and deported (7/1942) but my Mother and her 3 sisters were not because they were French citizens and French citizens were not being deported yet so it seems that the French didn't consider her French or she won't have been deported at that time. German records I found list place of birth (sometimes with incorrect birthdate) but never citizenship. 

I have not found French censuses online for the years 1925-1941 to find out what citizenship my Grandmother was considered after she moved back to France, during the war or if had it changed status because of the war and her place/time of birth. Any ideas on how to find out? Thank you.

Thank you
Debby Painter