Marriage document date doesn't match other records #records #poland


srg100@...
 

Does anyone know why the date on a Polish marriage record would be in January 1897, while the marriage date recorded on the couple's children's birth certificates is in March 1897?
My great grandparents marriage record says they were married in Szrensk, Plock Gubernia on 22 January 1897.It's definitely the right record, the place and all the names  match.
My grandfather was born in Glasgow, Scotland in 1901 and his birth certificate has his parents' marriage as being on 8 March 1897. His brother's birth certificate has the same marriage date on it. The informant was my great grandfather in both cases.

Many thanks.
--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK


Diane Jacobs
 

The only thing that comes to mind is that the first marriage was civil and the second was
Religious ie. performed by a Rabbi.

Diane Jacobs


On Dec 14, 2021, at 11:48 AM, srg100@... wrote:

Does anyone know why the date on a Polish marriage record would be in January 1897, while the marriage date recorded on the couple's children's birth certificates is in March 1897?
My great grandparents marriage record says they were married in Szrensk, Plock Gubernia on 22 January 1897.It's definitely the right record, the place and all the names  match.
My grandfather was born in Glasgow, Scotland in 1901 and his birth certificate has his parents' marriage as being on 8 March 1897. His brother's birth certificate has the same marriage date on it. The informant was my great grandfather in both cases.

Many thanks.
--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK

--
Diane Jacobs, Somerset, New Jersey


mrsbrite@...
 

From my experience and some things I have read mentions that :People in Europe were not so invested in proper dates. Also peoples memories differed at different times.  My grandmother's birthday was "unknown" by my family.  Then found another document -my great grandfather' naturalization papers, that showed one date and then I found her actual birth certificate in Poland. I would "trust" the earliest record until another more credible record comes to light.. In my uneducated, humble opinion
--
Marcie Murray
Minneapolis MN


srg100@...
 

Thanks Marcie

I know my husband's grandmother thought her birthday was 25 December as she was born on Xmas. But she was born in Russia so it was really on 6th January :)
This is a much bigger difference but I hear what you're saying. 
Sounds like if the name details makes sense, a difference in dates is not a reason to think the document is wrong.
Thanks!

--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK


srg100@...
 

Thanks for replying!
Good idea but the first one was definitely a religious one.

--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK


Eleanor Lind
 

Did the calendar not alter?
eleanor Lind 
London


Relly coleman
 

At that time in Poland people often only had a religious marriage. A civil one followed if they needed it for legal purposes, such as applying for a passport.  It is not unusual to find a marriage registration years after children were born. Seems like your g-g-parents moved to Scotland shortly after their religious marriage. The second date may therefore be the civil and thus the ‘official’ one for legal purposes. 

relly coleman


srg100@...
 

Interesting thought. Does that mean there will be another marriage record for them in Poland as I haven't seen one.
Mind you it was hard enough to find this one :)
I'm not sure exactly when they moved but my grandfather wasn't born until 8 May 1901.

Thanks!
--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK


Dan Nussbaum
 

The Russian Empire still followed the Julian calendar until it was destroyed by the Russian revolution. 

When people immigrated to western countries that used the Gregorian calendar there was frequently a lot of confusion. 

Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1897.

That might explain the confusion.

Daniel Nussbaum II, M.D., FAAP
Retired Developmental Pediatrician
Rochester, New York
yekkey@...
 
Tone can be misinterpreted in email. Please read my words with warmth, kindness, and good intentions.

Searching for;
Nussbaum, Katzenstein, Mannheimer and Goldschmidt; Rhina, Raboldshausen and Bad Hersfeld, Germany
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Stephen Weinstein
 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:33 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote:
The Russian Empire still followed the Julian calendar until it was destroyed by the Russian revolution. 

When people immigrated to western countries that used the Gregorian calendar there was frequently a lot of confusion. 

Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1897.

That might explain the confusion.

 In 1897, the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars was only 12 days.  That doesn't explain a discrepancy between 22 January and 8 March (45 days). 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


srg100@...
 

Thank you Daniel and Stephen for replying.
The difference in calendars was my first thought but as Stephen says that's only 12 days so doesn't seem to work in this case.
--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK


Ines Klein
 

Sometimes I have found tow marriage records for a marriage, one in the hometown from the husband and the other in the hometown from the wife. But in this cases it was typically one or tow weeks between the tow dates recorded. But I want to draw attention of this fact.

Ines Klein


David Harrison <djh_119@...>
 

The difference in days between the two systems was more than two weeks,  In England my grandfather's birthday was taken as 1th Jan 1868. Poland it was late December 1967.  You will have even more fun if you are swapping in or out of the Jewish Calendar at the time of changing country.  If in doubt quote any date plus or minus two months or even more if you cannot find and certificate of birth but need to find the record of the Mole who performed the brit.

David Harrison
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Stephen Weinstein via groups.jewishgen.org <stephenweinstein=yahoo.com@...>
Sent: 16 December 2021 03:14
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Marriage document date doesn't match other records #poland
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:33 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote:
The Russian Empire still followed the Julian calendar until it was destroyed by the Russian revolution. 

When people immigrated to western countries that used the Gregorian calendar there was frequently a lot of confusion. 

Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1897.

That might explain the confusion.

 In 1897, the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars was only 12 days.  That doesn't explain a discrepancy between 22 January and 8 March (45 days). 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


Amos Israel Zezmer
 

Hello, David.

You are slightly inaccurate regarding the difference between the two calendar systems being more than two weeks, i.e., more than 14 days.

In the 19th century there was a twelve-day difference between the Julian and the Gregorian calendars.
In the 20th century there was a thirteen-day difference between the Julian and the Gregorian calendars.

Amos ZEZMER
Yerres, France

On 17-Dec-21 22:21, David Harrison wrote:
The difference in days between the two systems was more than two weeks,  In England my grandfather's birthday was taken as 1th Jan 1868. Poland it was late December 1967.  You will have even more fun if you are swapping in or out of the Jewish Calendar at the time of changing country.  If in doubt quote any date plus or minus two months or even more if you cannot find and certificate of birth but need to find the record of the Mole who performed the brit.

David Harrison
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Stephen Weinstein via groups.jewishgen.org <stephenweinstein=yahoo.com@...>
Sent: 16 December 2021 03:14
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Marriage document date doesn't match other records #poland
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:33 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote:
The Russian Empire still followed the Julian calendar until it was destroyed by the Russian revolution. 

When people immigrated to western countries that used the Gregorian calendar there was frequently a lot of confusion. 

Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1897.

That might explain the confusion.

 In 1897, the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars was only 12 days.  That doesn't explain a discrepancy between 22 January and 8 March (45 days). 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


Odeda Zlotnick
 

The topic header seems to concern documents, however, Shoshanah, you  also said that on both your GF's birth certificate, and on his brother's the informant for your great great parents marriage date was your GGF.

Do you know if he presented a formal marriage document when registering his boys? Or was he only giving a verbal statement?

Because if the question is: "Why did my GGF give a different date for his marriage when reporting his sons' births' than what I have on a Polish document" we are in different territory.

Here's a possible explanation of why your GGF consistently informed the registrar the his marriage date was 8 March.


We start off with the fact that most Jews in the 19th century lived according to the Jewish calendar.

Another fact: You have a document from Plock (Russian Empire at that time) registering the marriage on 22 Jan. 1897 (Presumably  according to the Julian calendar). First question: When did your great great grandparents marry according to the Jewish Calendar.

According to Steve Morse's Converting between Julian and Gregorian Calendar in One Step (stevemorse.org), 22 Jan 1897 would have been 3 February.

Converting 3rd February to the Hebrew calendar gives us 1 Adar 1st 

A Hebrew leap year has two months' named Adar, Adar 1st and Adar 2nd.

Doubtlessly, your GGF knew the Hebrew date.  Now, the question becomes, who did the date conversions for your GGF?

Did the person who calculated the conversion know/understand/realize there were 2 months of Adar in 1897, and that the date your GGF needed converted was on the first month on Adar and not on the second?

If you look at the date of 1 Adar 2nd for that year, it would have been 5 March.

A handwritten 5 looks quite similar to 8. Perhaps your GGF misread it.

Perhaps your GGF had someone do the conversion for him, and write it on a note that he showed the Scottish registrar?  It's not difficult to mistake to handwritten 5 for an 8.

So, the discrepancy can be explained as the result of the following:

1)     Your great great grandparents were married on 1 Adar 1st (Julian Calendar 22 January)

2)     Whoever did the converting missed the fact that it was Adar 1st, and wrote down the Gregorian date for 1st Adar 2 -- 5 March

3)     Somebody – your GGF or the registrar misread 5 for 8, and thus you got March 8.

A theory. First step in checking it: finding out the real process of registering births in Scotland – did they simply ask the parents when they were married? Step 2, find out how people converted dates in those days….

 

 

---
Odeda Zlotnick
Jerusalem, Israel.


David Harrison <djh_119@...>
 

Amos
Thank you.  My error,  I had got this tangled between the two Easters and holidays in Greece,
David. Harrison


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Amos Israel Zezmer <amos.zezmer@...>
Sent: 17 December 2021 22:00
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Marriage document date doesn't match other records #poland
 
Hello, David.

You are slightly inaccurate regarding the difference between the two calendar systems being more than two weeks, i.e., more than 14 days.

In the 19th century there was a twelve-day difference between the Julian and the Gregorian calendars.
In the 20th century there was a thirteen-day difference between the Julian and the Gregorian calendars.

Amos ZEZMER
Yerres, France

On 17-Dec-21 22:21, David Harrison wrote:
The difference in days between the two systems was more than two weeks,  In England my grandfather's birthday was taken as 1th Jan 1868. Poland it was late December 1967.  You will have even more fun if you are swapping in or out of the Jewish Calendar at the time of changing country.  If in doubt quote any date plus or minus two months or even more if you cannot find and certificate of birth but need to find the record of the Mole who performed the brit.

David Harrison
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Stephen Weinstein via groups.jewishgen.org <stephenweinstein=yahoo.com@...>
Sent: 16 December 2021 03:14
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Marriage document date doesn't match other records #poland
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:33 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote:
The Russian Empire still followed the Julian calendar until it was destroyed by the Russian revolution. 

When people immigrated to western countries that used the Gregorian calendar there was frequently a lot of confusion. 

Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1897.

That might explain the confusion.

 In 1897, the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars was only 12 days.  That doesn't explain a discrepancy between 22 January and 8 March (45 days). 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


David Harrison <djh_119@...>
 

Sorry
I must have had a soft thumb, it should have been 11th Jan1868 (UK) that was Dec 1867 Poland.
David Harrison
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of David Harrison <djh_119@...>
Sent: 17 December 2021 21:21
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Marriage document date doesn't match other records #poland
 
The difference in days between the two systems was more than two weeks,  In England my grandfather's birthday was taken as 1th Jan 1868. Poland it was late December 1967.  You will have even more fun if you are swapping in or out of the Jewish Calendar at the time of changing country.  If in doubt quote any date plus or minus two months or even more if you cannot find and certificate of birth but need to find the record of the Mole who performed the brit.

David Harrison
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Stephen Weinstein via groups.jewishgen.org <stephenweinstein=yahoo.com@...>
Sent: 16 December 2021 03:14
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Marriage document date doesn't match other records #poland
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:33 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote:
The Russian Empire still followed the Julian calendar until it was destroyed by the Russian revolution. 

When people immigrated to western countries that used the Gregorian calendar there was frequently a lot of confusion. 

Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1897.

That might explain the confusion.

 In 1897, the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars was only 12 days.  That doesn't explain a discrepancy between 22 January and 8 March (45 days). 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


srg100@...
 

Wow Odeda thanks for that!
I did wonder about translating the dates from the secular to the Jewish calendar and whether relevant festivals had an effect. But I couldn't think of why it would apply in this case.
The fact that the date could have been 12 days out and then there being two Adars hadn't occurred to me.
You make a lot of sense. 
My GGF would certainly have know the Jewish date he was married on. He couldn't read or write English so that may have contributed to it too.
You've certainly given me food for thought and some more research to do!

Thanks so much!

BTW there are 2 Adars this Jewish year too : )
--
Shoshanah Glickman
Gateshead, UK