Father and son with same name and what is correct name of grandfather? #names


Steven
 

Happy New Year all! I have a couple of questions that maybe some of you experts can help me with.


While researching my father in laws paternal line, MNUSHKIN from Bobruisk, I’ve come across some confusion. First, I know that his father and his paternal grandfather were both named Meer (Meyer). This I have confirmed from his Hebrew name on his headstone and it reflects from, what I’m quite certain is, his birth record, which I will attach a screen shot of. Is it possible for an Ashkenazi father to name his son the same name as his own while still alive? My father in laws DNA showed 100% Eastern European, no Sephardim. I had assumed that the father passed away before the son was born and the mother named her son after the departed husband, but there is a note on the record that the “father is registered in Bobruisk”. Does this mean the father was still alive at the time of his sons birth?

The other question I have is, what is the grandfathers name? On the sons birth record it states the grandfathers name is Berka. On, what I’m pretty sure is the marriage record of the father, it states that his fathers name is Leiba. I will attach both records.

So far I haven’t found any other records related to either of these. Any help would be most appreciated.

Thank you,
Steve Buzil

researching:

BUZILA and KILYAN from present day Moldova 

GRUBER and FEINGOLD from present day Ukraine

SEIDLER/ZEIDLER, GROSSBARD, BERLIN, WICZYNSKY, PTAKEWICZ, GOODMAN, DOBROSZKA and BROWN/BRAUN from present day Poland.

PORTNOY, GERSHON and OFSAIOF/OVSAIOVICH from present day Lithuania

MNUSHKIN and KOLVARACHIK from present day Belarus

EISENSTEIN and ZALIO from present day Romania



Shelley Mitchell
 

Naming patterns are often confusing. We have a whole bunch of Ss down the line. Great grandfathers Szloma, Szymon, grandfather Zalman/Solomon, uncle Sidney, deceased 1st cousin Steven, living 1st cousin Steven, etc. The lesson : without being told who everyone was named after, it would be difficult to determine. It does help trying to match up deaths. For example, when my great grandmother died, my grandmother named her next born after her mother. 


Shelley Mitchell, NYC


jbonline1111@...
 

"...there is a note on the record that the “father is registered in Bobruisk”. Does this mean the father was still alive at the time of his sons birth?"  Is it possible that the father was both registered there and deceased? Perhaps someone can answer this question. 

Similar to Shelley MItchell's post, every first born in my family except has a name that starts with B, including me.  The other family's second born's name starts with B; the first born was named for the mother's deceased mother. The rest of us were named for my maternal grandmother, who died well before we were born. 
--
Barbara Sloan
Conway, SC


binyaminkerman@...
 

I apologise, I think Berka is more likely a nickname for Ber which could be interchanged with the Hebrew name Dov. Some gravestones in Bobruisk with the names Yisroel Dov or Yisroel Ber that were recorded as Berka made me realize my mistake.
--
Binyamin Kerman
Baltimore MD

Researching:
KERMAN Pinsk 
SPIELER Lodz, Zloczew, Belchatow
SEGALL, SCHWARTZ Piatra Neamt


binyaminkerman@...
 

To answer your second question first, I think the grandfather's name is Berka (I believe a nickname for Baruch but not sure) and since Leiba is a woman's name (although it could be a mistaken transcription of the man's name Leib) I would make a guess that the groom Meer's mother Leiba was the only parent alive when he married and therefore she is recorded instead of the father.
There is a lot of speculation in this, but I think it is possible that the father and son were both Meer. First of all, while it is highly unusual there are cases of Ashkenazim naming after living parents. It's also possible that the father died before the son's birth and the note doesn't imply that he was a current living resident but rather had been a resident of Bobruisk when living. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about the implications of comments on the records or maybe someone who can find and read the original document can help you clarify more.

Binyamin Kerman
Baltimore MD

Researching:
KERMAN Pinsk 
SPIELER Lodz, Zloczew, Belchatow
SEGALL, SCHWARTZ Piatra Neamt


Michele Lock
 

When there is conflicting or unusual information in Jewishgen records, I think it's helpful to get copies of the original images of these marriage and birth records, and have them re-translated from Russian. I don't know what is involved in ordering from the archives in Minsk, Belarus, but others can advise you on this. Sometimes there is additional information in the record that is not captured in the Jewishgen extract.

I have seen Leiba used as a male given name. The name Liebe or Lieba is a woman's name.
--
Michele Lock

Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock and Kalon/Kolon in Zagare/Joniskis/Gruzdziai, Lithuania
Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock in Plunge/Telsiai in Lithuania
Rabinowitz in Papile, Lithuania and Riga, Latvia
Trisinsky/Trushinsky/Sturisky and Leybman in Dotnuva, Lithuania
Olitsky in Alytus, Suwalki, Poland/Lithuania
Gutman/Goodman in Czestochowa, Poland
Lavine/Lev/Lew in Trenton, New Jersey and Lida/Vilna gub., Belarus


Ellen Caplan
 

Leiba was most definitely a man's name in the old country, although today it is also used as a woman's name.
My male Liebman/ Lebman ancestors from Belarus had the name Leiba in every generation back as far as I can go to 1800. I surmise that their surname came from their first name, as son of Leiba/Lieba. There was even at least one female given this family name - spelled Liba in the transcribed records. (My Latvian ancestors also repeated the name in each generation, but in their case it was given as Leib. My daughter and grandson both continue this tradition with the names Leiba and Leib.)

Remember that spelling in English is of no consequence in the records, where the original was not written in English, but in Yiddish, Hebrew, Russian, German, etc. and where there were no standards for spellings/ transcription into English.
 
Ellen Caplan
Ottawa, Canada
Researching: EISENBERG, NAGLER, GINIGER, KLINGER: Mielnica, Ustye Biscupie, & Zalescie, Galicia; BREGER, LIEBMAN: Gomel & area, Belarus; PARADISGARTEN,  SOLOMON: Tukums & Mitau, Latvia