I have never seen this before on a headstone #translation #general
Bob Silverstein
Not only is Bessie's father's name there but also the grandfather. This is new to me. Does this mean the father whose name does not have h'Kohane did something to lose the status of a Kohane?
Next question. Is her given name really Bessie in Hebrew? Thank you in advance for your interest. -- Bob Silverstein bobsilverstein@... Elk Grove Village, IL Researching Kaplan (Krynki, Poland) Tzipershteyn (Logishin, Pinsk, Belarus), Friedson/Fridzon (Pinsk, Cuba, Massachusetts), Israel and Goodman (Mishnitz, Warsaw, Manchester). |
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Odeda Zlotnick
"Bat-Tsion" is Batya's second name. You can even see the faint dash between the Bat and the Tsion.
Her father was Yaakov Moshe HaCohen. -- Odeda Zlotnick Jerusalem, Israel. |
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Dr.Josef ASH
Bob,
1. She was Bathya (pronounced as Batya, the second letter in Hebrew is tav, which is "T" in Hebrew, but "S" in Yiddish (gut shabeS) 2. She was Batya BAT-TSIYON, I think it is her surname and doesn't mean she was Tsiyon's daughter. 3. she was "daughter of Yaakov-Moshe HAKOHEN" 4. do you know the surname of the husband Yehuda Lejb s/o Tsvi? Wasn't he BEN-TSIYON? BAT-TZLYON? 5. the status of cohen nobody "earns", it comes from the father and cannot be "lost". (should ask some Rabbi, if I am right in this point ) Josef ASH, Israel |
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Ittai Hershman
I agree with Odeda that Bat-Zion is part of her given name (or perhaps her "maiden name"). One should note that the name Batya, would have been pronounced by Ashkenazim as Basya, from which Bessie is an obvious Anglicization. Bat-Zion would have been pronounced by Ashkenazim as Bas-Zion, which shares some of that same sound play.
Tangentially, another recent headstone query featured the Hebrew name Pesha and English Bessie, which is a similar Anglicization. Pesha is a Yiddish form of Batya, often informalized to Pessie, which then easily turns into Anglicized Bessie. P/B swaps are a known linguistic phenomenon. -Ittai Hershman New York City |
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davidmdubin@...
Odeda is correct. No way Bat Zion is a parent or Surname. It’s a derivative of Ben-Zion (son of Zion), a reasonably common male name. Bat-Zion (daughter of Zion) would have been pretty much an unheard-of name in the era in which she was named. More likely she adopted that Hebraicized name at some point. my mother was named Tryna but adopted the minimally similar Hebrew name Tamar in her teens. All in New York City, not Israel. And her tombstone now says Tryna-Tamar.
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Susan&David
Besie has a double given name: Batya bat-Tzion See:
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/daughter-zion-bat-tzion
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Compare to: https://www.kveller.com/jewish-baby-name/benzion/ She is the daughter of Yakov Moshe the Kohane. The pronunciation Batya/Basya is explained in Dr. Ash's reply. David Rosen Boston, MA On 3/14/2022 12:39 PM, Bob Silverstein
wrote:
Not only is Bessie's father's name there but also the grandfather. This is new to me. Does this mean the father whose name does not have h'Kohane did something to lose the status of a Kohane? |
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Just like my own sister: Matya Batya, Bat Shimon Wexler.
Jonathan Wexler |
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Dan Oren
Although the grandfather's name does not appear on this tombstone, sometimes a grandfather's (or other ancestor's name) might appear on the tombstone of someone with illustrious lineage, especially in a chasidic dynasty.
-- Dan A. Oren Connecticut, USA |
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Bob Silverstein
Actually, you can lose Kohane. I know a Kohane who married a convert (orthodox) and consequently lost it. The Torah specifies this. The question has now arisen. The wife tested 33% Ashkenazi. Her grandmother is thought to be Jewish based upon Shoah records. If this can be proven convincingly, what does that make the husband?
-- Bob Silverstein bobsilverstein@... Elk Grove Village, IL Researching Kaplan (Krynki, Poland) Tzipershteyn (Logishin, Pinsk, Belarus), Friedson/Fridzon (Pinsk, Cuba, Massachusetts), Israel and Goodman (Mishnitz, Warsaw, Manchester). |
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Bob Silverstein
I did not think the hyphen mattered but now it all fits together.
-- Bob Silverstein bobsilverstein@... Elk Grove Village, IL Researching Kaplan (Krynki, Poland) Tzipershteyn (Logishin, Pinsk, Belarus), Friedson/Fridzon (Pinsk, Cuba, Massachusetts), Israel and Goodman (Mishnitz, Warsaw, Manchester). |
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Jill Whitehead
My great grandmother was variously known as Bertha/Basha/Betsy/Bessie - but her birth name was Hadassah, unless this was another example of a double name?
Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK |
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Yehuda Berman
A cohen who marries a convert does not lose his cohen status but his male children are "damaged" cohanim (Hebrew plural of cohen). In Hebrew the status is known as a "cohen khalal". He cannot stand with the other cohanim when they bless the congregation (every day in Israel and, for Ashkenazim in the Diaspora, only on the High Holidays). We have an acquaintance who is the son of a cohen and a convert and walks out of services when the priestly blessing is recited, returning afterwards.
As for the convert in question, if the Jewish grandmother was the mother's mother then the mother was Jewish and therefore the woman in question was born Jewish and didn't need to convert. We have a neighbor who told his mother that he wanted to convert to Judaism. She told him that he didn't need to - she was Jewish but had hidden it for fear of another Holocaust. -- Yehuda Berman |
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Michael Rubin
I agree with another respondent that "Bat-Tziyon" (daughter of Zion) would have been pretty much an unheard-of name in the era in which she was named. As such, one additional possibility to contemplate is the tradition of adding (or sometimes changing) a name (at all points in life) due to significant illness. In the case of men, names such as Chaim ("life") are traditional additions. Yet another possibility is Zionism: since she lived during the establishment of the State of Israel, taking a name like "Bat Tziyon" could have been an expression of her feelings later in life watching the events of 1948.
Michael Rubin Boston, MA |
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Eva Lawrence
On page 272 of my German edition of Arnold Taezer' s Geschichte der Judn in Jebehausen und Goeppingen,, thee eldest daughter of Samuel Daniel Rosenthaler is called Bassie with (Bas Zion) in brackets. She was born in 1812 and died in 1868. So Bat-Zion, though rare, was an accepted given name used at that time. Batya would simply be the Neimark family pet name for the lady.
-- Eva Lawrence St Albans, UK. |
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shimonsporn
Although a not very common given name in the 1800's, "Bas Tzion" is a biblical one. It is written in 19 places in the various of books of the Naviim & Kesuvim (Prophets & Scripture), including Melachim II: 19:21, Yeshayahu 10:32, 16:1, 37:22, 52:2, Yirmiyahu 4;31, 6:2, 6:23, Michah 4:8, 4:10, Tzefania 3:14, Zechariah 2:14, 9:9, & Eichah 2:1, 2:4, 2:8, 2:13, 2:18 & 4:22.
. It literally means "Daughter of Zion," & is a profound reference to the Jewish people in exile & to the destroyed Temple Mount in Jerusalem ("Har Bas Tzion," Yeshayahu 16:1) Shimon Sporn of Beit Shemesh, Israel Researcher # 57380 Perl, Margolies, Itzkowitz, Lehrer families from Kisvarda, Fenyeslitke, Ustilug, Leher- Rozenberg families of Hrubieszów Galicia Edmondton, London Sporn, Abraham families of Marosorozfalu, Rusii Munti, Saszreghin |
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