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Deb
aka Debra Katz
Pacific Beach CA USA
dnadeb@...

At 23:38 21/07/2022, Deb Katz wrote:

I'm looking for living male descendants of a Katzenellenbogen (or any variant) lineage who  traces to Katzenellenbogen in the Minsk region of modern Belarus.  The person DOES NOT need to have the tradition of descent from the Maharam of Prague (via Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen)---in fact, it would be just as well if they do not have this tradition.  
 
I'm hoping to find someone as described above who might be willing to take a Y-chromosome DNA test (which I will pay for) as part of a research project on a major YDNA cohanim lineage where there is a significant subgroup of Nelson/Katznelson/Katzenellenbogens.  
 
To keep this short I've left out a lot of detail...if interested and it seems relevant, please contact me via email below and I can fill you in.
 
Thanks so much!
 
Deb Katz
Pacific Beach CA USA
dnadeb@...
Genetic Genealogy Maven

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Deb
aka Debra Katz
Pacific Beach CA USA
dnadeb@...

I do not know how up-to-date my data is, but try

simonehellerman@...,
Kathryn Kanarek James         Kathrynbkj@...,

Hi
This probably wont be much help, but rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen, maharam of Padua is my second cousin once removed's husband's 12th great grandfather.

The line starts with Meir K
his father, shmuel Yehuda,
his father Saul Wahl K (1 day king)
his father Meir Wahl K
his mother Beile Frankel-Teomim (Wahl)
etc

Gerald Jacobs

I am a descendant of the Maharam of Padua (and Shaul Wahl), several paths in my ancestry lead to them. In The Unbroken Chain by Neil Rosenstein you will find many other descendants.
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David Seldner, Karlsruhe, Germany
seldner@...

You might try Prof. John Katzenellenbogen at the Univ of Illinois jkatzene@...
Also, some Katzenellenbogens have shortened their name simply to Ellenbogen.
Bob Weinberg, Brookline MA

Hi Debra,

You may be interested in taking a peek at my Y-DNA research study: "The Y-DNA Genetic Signature and Ethnic Origin of the Katzenellenbogen Rabbinical Lineage," in which my research team identified the Y-DNA genetic signature of the patrilineal line descending from Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen.  In that study, we also discovered that the Katzenellenbogen rabbinical line has a Sephardic ethnic origin. 

A Notable Connection profile which I drafted for the Katzenellenbogen rabbinical lineage, presenting its terminal SNP and haplogroup age, will soon be added to FTDNA's Discovery tools.   Here is a link to the original Y-DNA research study: https://tinyurl.com/3anz5b9s.  An updated study will be posted to Academia.edu as soon as all Big Y-700 tests are completed.

Kindest and best regards,

Jeffrey Mark Paull
jmpaull@...

I was absolutely aware of your excellent study, Jeffrey, and that is why I emphasized that I was equally if not more interested in Katzenellenbogens who did not have a tradition of patrilineal descent from the Maharam, since your study makes it pretty likely that if they do, they are going to be in J1 (L823) and I'm looking for a J2a line. Indeed, I have referred many folks who have responded to my post to your very same study.   BTW, I'm running into a lot of those E-M35-Y6923 Katzenellenbogens in this process...there's a story there to be sure! (-;

I'll be very interested, however, to see the BigY results when you have them and to what degree they add nuance to your conclusions re the Katzenellenbogen signature...although I'm quite aware that the haplogroup branch J1-L823 will not change! (-;

Thanks again for your reply!

Deb Katz
dnadeb@...

Some Katzenellenbogens changed their surname to Nelson.

Daniel Nussbaum II, M.D., FAAP
Retired Developmental Pediatrician
Rochester, New York

There are 101 references to Katzenellenbogen in the UK Findmypast website, if you wish to broaden your search internationally Deb. My father's best friend at school in Liverpool had a Katzenellenbogen mother, and she had other family in the area.  Findmypast gives branches in Manchester, London and those who emigrated to South Africa, as well as those who came over to UK as refugees in WW2. You could put out a request on the UK equivalent of this discussion group. 

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK

Hi Deb,

I do not have information regarding living descendants of Katzenellenbogen. However, some years back, I sponsored the Yiddish translation of the Swerznie portion of the Steibtz-Swerznie Yizkor book. The translation contains information on the Katzenellenbogen rabbinic line. Here's a link to the completed translation:

https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Stowbtsy/Stowbtsy.html

Stowbtsy and Novy Svierzhen, located on opposite banks of the Nieman River, are about 50 miles southwest of Minsk.

Kind regards,
David Passman
Dallas, Texas

Hi Debra,

We are still waiting for Big Y-700 test results for several of our pedigreed descendants before we officially update the Katzenellenbogen Y-DNA study, but I can share the preliminary results with you.  They indicate that the Katzenellenbogen rabbinical lineage, descending from Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen (c. 1482-1565), belongs to the J-ZS1716 haplogroup.  It is two SNP branches down from J-L823 on the haplotree: J-L823 > J-BY-101 > J-ZS716.

Kindest and best regards,

Jeffrey Mark Paull

There are at least 3 Katzenelenbogens who are part of the E-Y6923 Jewish
Haplogroup.
Their line specifically is currently called E-BY165218. They obviously
are quite a different family from the J haplogroup Rabbinical line.

Vivs Laliberte

E-Y6923 Project Admin

(If you are tagged as haplogroup E, there's a decent chance you belong
with us! =)
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Vivs Laliberte
www.theOCGG.com

 

Orange County, Calfiornia

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 12:51 PM, Jeffrey Mark Paull wrote:

Jeffrey...quick check on whether this might be a typo....is it J-ZS716...or J-ZS1716?  I ask because I can't find the former on trees, although it may be a new branch and that's why.  Regardless, it is an exciting development since the devil is in the branch details with YDNA! (-:

Deb Katz
dnadeb@...
Pacific Beach CA USA

Hi Vivs,

You probably already know this but there is a profile on GENI who is just two steps upstream from E-BY162518, born about 1700: https://www.geni.com/people/Rabbi-Azriel-Ben-Yehuda/6000000100375195828 I wonder if R' Azriel is somehow connected to your E-line K'bogens?

Also, there is a sample from 14th Century Erfurt which is on the same line as E-BY162518, way upstream but below Z827: Erfurt sample I14847 is J-Z830, dated to about 1350. I wish the academic researchers would do Big Y on their ancient samples because Z830 isn't going to do us genealogists much good.

Best Wishes,
Adam Cherson
Novum Eboracum

Dear Deb.  There are already enough suggestions in this thread to keep you busy for a long time.  So please forgive me as I disgorge more ideas for your research into Aba HaCohen's descendants.  David Passman's reply about the Steibtz-Swerznie rabbi with Katzenellenbogen lineage prompted me to review that Yizkor book.  I immediately saw something interesting, so I went to a different Yizkor book from the same part of Belarus, one that I know well (Korelitz).  There were connections to Steibtz-Swerznie and Katzenellenbogen.  Like a moth chasing the next bright light, I went to your phylogeny tree.  Bingo.  There are at least two people in your project from Nesvizh that have the requisite Y-DNA (but not the Katzenellenbogen name).  Both are in branches under FT239581 and one of them is in my surname project, which means that in addition to Big Y, you already have all the genealogy that I have been able to assemble.  Steibtz (aka Stowbtsy or Stolpce) is 19 miles north of Nesvizh and 26 miles east of Korelitz.  Map below.



What I don't know is how close to FT239581 your Katzenellenbogen hunch might be.  But, I suspect you know.  So, starting with the lead from David Passman, here is what I can contribute:

1.  Jews arrived to this still-rural part of Belarus about 500 years ago.  It has a long history of being very religious and adherent to Torah.  Despite its numerically modest population, this area generated a disproportionately high amount of renowned rabbis.  Frequently Hassidic.  The Mir Yeshiva (in the center of the map, 10 miles west of Stowbtsy) was famous and attracted rabbinical scholars from afar.  No surprise that Katzenellenbogen was connected to this area.
2.  The Yizkor book for Stowbtsy contains a memorial section for the adjacent shtetl of Swerznie (on the other side of the Neiman River).  Ha Rav Katzenellenbogen is in a chapter about Swerznie rabbis, starting page 387, authored by Moshe Tzinowitz (Cinowitz).  Katzenellenbogen genealogy is provided.
3.  A different chapter in the Swerznie section was authored by Yaacov Katzenellenbogen.  Obviously, to be an author meant that the person did not perish in the Shoah.  This might lead to a Y-DNA descendant candidate, since Yaacov was a male Katzenellenbogen.  Maybe David Passman, in his role as Swerznie transliteration sponsor, has a suggestion on tracing Yaacov?  If not, I know Ann Belinsky in Israel.  She was one of the transliterators of this Yizkor book.
4.  Moshe Tzinowitz evidently knew a lot about the area rabbis.  He authored chapters on approx 10 rabbis in Stowbtsy and Swerznie.  I immediately recognized the name of Moshe Tzinowitz, because he also wrote about a 16 chapters on prominent rabbis in a Yizkor book that I know well...Korelitz.
5.  Moshe Tzinowitz was so unusually prolific in at least two Yizkor books regarding his knowledge of area rabbis, that I wonder if he left records (beyond what was published in the Yizkor books) that could prove useful in your research?
6.  Skimming the 16ish Tzinowitz contributions about rabbis in the Korelitz book did not identify any named Katzenellenbogen.  However, I happened to notice that there were multiple chapters in the Korelitz book written by Katzenelson, including one who was male - Yitzhak Katzenelson.  Given the proximity to Swerznie and the relative obscurity of the target surname in this rural part of Belarus, here could be another lead for a Y-DNA candidate.  Coincidentally, Ann Belinsky was the main editor of the updated Korelitz book, published 2018.  She might be a good person to ask for leads, as she knows many living Korelitzer descendants.
7.  Jumping to nearby Nesvizh, you already know that the correct J2a DNA was in that shtetl at least twice, albeit associated with two surnames that were not Katzenellenbogen.  Intriguingly, the Nesvizher descendant who is not in my surname project, shares his distinctive surname, like a Bridge Over Troubled Waters (that is your clue), with a cluster that lived 19 miles away in Stowbtsy.  See the list of martyrs in the Stowbtsy book, starting page 495.  Until now, I do not recall noticing this potential connection.

Please let me know if this blind moth found a light bulb.  ;)

Best regards.
Ken Domeshek.  Houston.
FTDNA surname project:  Damesek