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Request for signatures translation-Hebrew #translation
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@Tubalcain
Dear JG members - I would very much appreciate a translation of the signatures below from a helpful Hebrew speaker.
Thank you. 1/ Signature from an ancestor living in Hellering-les-Fenétranges, Moselle, France in the XVIIIth century (Simon Aron or Aron Simon ?). I was told that special characters after the signature could mean that this person was a rabbi, is it true ?    2/ Signatures at the bottom of this ketubah signed in Carpentras, France, in 1789  Bruno Gourevitch MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately |
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Odeda Zlotnick
The name is Aharon the next two characters mean "son of" the other four could be an abbreviation preceding his father's name. It could be "the respected Rabbi, Rav" but the abbreviation marks are the usual ones. Perhaps that's the way they marked in that place at that time.
In Jewish tradition, a person's name consists of their given name, and their father's given name. Thus, in example no. 1 in the first image, you're showing us only part of the full name. In the second image, the name is once again, Aharon, then you have "son of". It's possible that the next word stands for "HaRav Shimon". HaRav means "the rabbi". Some of the letters in example no. 2 are in Rashi script. Please improve the image resolution. -- Odeda Zlotnick Jerusalem, Israel. |
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In the first signature, you see first the letters kaf-heh, with slashes over the letters (meaning abbreviation), which often stands for k'vod harav, meaning something like "the honorable rabbi." Then it looks like the letter resh-bet after it, which could just be spelling out the rest of the phrase harav. Or the whole four letters with slashes could be an abbreviation for k'vod harav rabenu baruch – "the honorable rabbi, our blessed teacher." Presumably Shimon happens after those 4 initials, outside the screenshot? (As Odeda says, it seems there should be more going off to the left.)
What an exciting find! Irwin Keller Penngrove, CA |
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kassells@...
Dear Bruno,
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I have a few comments. In the four letter acronym, I do not read a Bet as the kadt letter, as Irvin writes. Please compare with the Bet of the precexing word "ben". We have hefe a standard four letter acro ym kaf-he-resh-resh, which can be read as Kvod Harav Rabeinou Rabi. It is indicating a rabbinical title. The non Jewish authorities, before 1808 in France, when Jews were asked to adopt fixed fami'y names, would call this person Aron SIMON. The name of the father will be used as if it were a regular family name. Do you know what name was chosen in 1808? Best regards, Laurent Kassel Moreshet, Israel n Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 12:24 PM, @Tubalcain wrote: Dear JG members - I would very much appreciate a translation of the signatures below from a helpful Hebrew speaker. |
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@Tubalcain
Dear Odeda, Irwin and Laurent,
Thank you very much for this very valuable information. I post below the signatures found on 2 civil status records, with indeed another part on the left and below the signature. I thought it was the signature of a witness.
Could you please help me to decipher these new elements?
With all my gratitude,
Bruno Gourévitch   @Odeda : I will send you later a copy of the signatures on the Ketubah of Carpentras with a better resolution |
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Odeda Zlotnick
Hi Bruno,
May I suggest you upload future images to JewishGen's dedicated image translation/interpretation site? They don't upload immediately, but they stay there for a whole week - and all responses there are public, giving everyone a chance to contribute and learn, ViewMate - Image Gallery (jewishgen.org) ViewMate - Instructions (jewishgen.org) As for the new images: The name is Aharon son of the honored rabbi rav Shim'on. The next characters - last in the first line of the first image, first on the second line of the second image look like a stylizes z"l to me = i.e. "may his memory be blessed" and indication that at that time Rav Shim'on was no longer alive. The next word if "from Hellringen" or something similar. The ending "n" or "en" could have something to do with the name in German - we are after all in Alsace Lorraine here.... -- Odeda Zlotnick Jerusalem, Israel. |
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Odeda Zlotnick
Hi, Bruno
The full text of the first signature is indeed Aharon son of the honored rabbi rav (or or possibly "our rabbi") Shim'on. It's possible that the two last characters in the first image, first on the second line of the second are a stylized z"l = of blessed memory. The next word is most probably "of Helringen". May I suggest you upload future question to JewishGen's dedicated site for translating / interpreting images? One of the great advantages is that your image will stay there for a whole week, and you can re-upload. The site enable free open discussion of the various interpretations - and the images can have very good resolution. Here's the link to the image gallery: ViewMate - Image Gallery (jewishgen.org) And here's how you upload: ViewMate - Instructions (jewishgen.org) You receive responses directly to your email, while the responder can see all responses on the site. -- Odeda Zlotnick Jerusalem, Israel. |
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