Coincidence? #general


Ellen Gottfried
 

Person #1 Samuel ROSANSKY born September 3, 1893 father Abram
died September 22, 1943 buried in Mt. Hebron cemetery

Person # 2 Samuel ROSANSKY born May 15, 1892 father Abram
died September 22, 1943 buried in Mt. Hebron cemetery

The date of birth for #1 was on his marriage certificate, his child's
birth certificate and his death certificate.

The date of birth for #2 was on his WW I draft card, his
naturalization certificate and his passport application.
Could this be the same man? If it is the same man, which date is
more likely for his date of birth?
Ellen GOTTFRIED, Plainview, New York


Banai Lynn Feldstein
 

Our ancestors didn't keep track of when they were born. Even the first generation in the US, their parents didn't know correct the birth dates of their kids. There's a story in my family of one kid who asked how old he was, and they thought he was about 12; they didn't know. You might find even more dates in more records. Usually they settled on a date at a certain time and gave that one in future records.

I heard a rabbi explain once, but I only recall some of the story. It was important to remember the yahrtzeit, the anniversary of their death. But not to celebrate their birth so much.

Neither date is really more reliable than the other. You'll need to find a birth record in Europe if you want to know the real correct date.
--
Banai Lynn Feldstein
Professional Genealogist
Salt Lake City, Utah
http://idogenealogy.com/
http://geneasearch.net/


Susan&David
 

My father, who was born in what is now Poland related to me that when he asked his mother when he was born she said (in Yiddish of course)  "A week before Pesach"  When he came to the USA he guessed March 15. 

David Rosen
Boston, MA .

On 1/14/2022 8:03 PM, Banai Lynn Feldstein wrote:
Our ancestors didn't keep track of when they were born. Even the first generation in the US, their parents didn't know correct the birth dates of their kids. There's a story in my family of one kid who asked how old he was, and they thought he was about 12; they didn't know. You might find even more dates in more records. Usually they settled on a date at a certain time and gave that one in future records.

I heard a rabbi explain once, but I only recall some of the story. It was important to remember the yahrtzeit, the anniversary of their death. But not to celebrate their birth so much.

Neither date is really more reliable than the other. You'll need to find a birth record in Europe if you want to know the real correct date.
--
Banai Lynn Feldstein
Professional Genealogist
Salt Lake City, Utah
http://idogenealogy.com/
http://geneasearch.net/


Renee Steinig
 

The grave locator on Mount Hebron's website (https://www.mounthebroncemetery.com/#search) lists only one Samuel Rosansky. He died on 22 Sep 1943 and is buried in a Workmen's Circle Section. According to the cemetery's records, he was 50 when he died.

No doubt Sam R. #1 and #2 are one and the same person and that like so many immigrants, he was inconsistent in reporting his date of birth. Or in the case of a death certificate, a relative reported a different date. If you want more reassurance, see the home address on Samuel's WWII draft card (with the 15 May 1892 birth date) and on his death record (with the 3 Sept. 1893 birth date); on both, the address is 584 Logan Street, Brooklyn.

Renee

Renee Steinig
Dix Hills (Long Island) NY

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:38 PM Ellen Gottfried <ellen@...> wrote:

Person #1 Samuel ROSANSKY born September 3, 1893 father Abram
died September 22, 1943 buried in Mt. Hebron cemetery

Person # 2 Samuel ROSANSKY born May 15, 1892 father Abram
died September 22, 1943 buried in Mt. Hebron cemetery

The date of birth for #1 was on his marriage certificate, his child's
birth certificate and his death certificate.

The date of birth for #2 was on his WW I draft card, his
naturalization certificate and his passport application.
Could this be the same man? If it is the same man, which date is
more likely for his date of birth?
Ellen GOTTFRIED, Plainview, New York


ramot418@...
 

@ Banai Lynn Feldstein
"I heard a rabbi explain once, but I only recall some of the story. It was important to remember the yahrzeit, the anniversary of their death."
Quite true. But one also must know at least the week of birth of a male child, so as to celebrate his bar mitzvah at the correct time. A lot of boys were told (or they remembered from their bar mitzvah) that they were born during the week of the <whatever> weekly portion of the Torah.
--
Steve Goldberg
Jerusalem, Israel
Researching:
Sagan/Shagan family from Veliuona (Velon), Lithuania
Goldberg family from Vidukle, Lithuania
Susselovitch/Zuselovitch family from Raseiniai (Rassein), Lithuania


jbonline1111@...
 

My maternal grandfather also didn't know his birthdate, but said it was during Pesach, so his kids designated April 15 as his birthday.  He really wasn't sure about the year either.  Whether that was because he supposedly lied about his age when he got off the boat at Ellis Island or some other reason is not clear.
--
Barbara Sloan
Conway, SC


Yitschok Margareten
 

A Bar Mitzvah is not related to the week the boy was born, it's actually the day he turns 13 according to the Hebrew calendar. 

The weekly portion of the Torah reading, is not according to the week he was born, but rather to the week he turns 13, which might be different that year than on the year he was born. 

In fact, the weekly portion of the Torah reading, is not the main thing of a Bar Mitzvah. The main thing of a Bar Mitzvah is being obligated by Jewish law to observe all Mitzvahs [commandments]. 

--
Yitschok Margareten


ramot418@...
 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 06:18 AM, Yitschok Margareten wrote:
"In fact, the weekly portion of the Torah reading, is not the main thing of a Bar Mitzvah. The main thing of a Bar Mitzvah is being obligated by Jewish law to observe all Mitzvahs [commandments]."
Very true.  The actual bar mitzvah 'ceremony' is during the week when the boy first puts on tefillin for the first time and gets an aliyah (Monday, Thursday or Rosh Hodesh).
-- ----------------------------
Steve Goldberg
Jerusalem, Israel
Researching:
Sagan/Shagan family from Veliuona (Velon), Lithuania
Goldberg family from Vidukle, Lithuania
Susselovitch/Zuselovitch family from Raseiniai (Rassein), Lithuania


Yehuda Berman
 

Our ancestors used the mostly lunar Jewish calendar - the "week before Pesach" is a good example. My mother was born on Hoshana Rabba (the seventh day of the holiday of Sukkot/Sukkos). But when she was 16, she had to get a (Russian) ID card and for that she had to give a secular date. So she used the date that Hoshana Rabba fell on that year and that became her "official" birthdate and was used on all future documents and for celebrating birthdays. For her it was no big deal. But it meant that there was almost a month's difference between her official birthdate and the date she was actually born. The Jewish calendar doesn't have a leap year day - i.e., a day added every 4 years - but a "leap year month", a month added before Pesach every two or three years so that Pesach will always fall in the Spring.
Yehuda Berman
Efrat, Israel
Searching: Echtman/Achtman, Kaminsky from Odessa; Berman from Tomashpol, Ukraine


Trudy Greener
 

Both my parents were born in the Ukraine, in the early part of the 20th century, before the Russian Revolution, when the calendar was changed.  All we knew is that we celebrated both their birthdays in January, but they never explained where those dates came from. My mother only said that they were both born during Chanukah, in different years. Only recently did I discover the ship manifest that confirmed the story we had, that they doctored her age when she, along with her mother and brother, joined her father in America, so that she would be counted as a minor child who could become an American citizen under her father's aegis.... no idea how she managed that, but the manifest actually shows a corrected age next to her name and that of her brother! 
Trudy Litt (Litvak) Greener, Jerusalem 


Robert Hanna
 

My paternal grandfather was born in Warsaw in either March or June of any year between 1876 and 1884.  Every document has a different date.  And I have been unable to locate his birth record.  I haven't given up, but I don't spend a lot of time trying to research this anymore.

Oh, and his family name was Chanan or Hanan or Hana or Hanna or Hanne or Gane or Heine.  His first name was Zelik.  One census record has Joseph, the rest of his papers have Zelik.  My father's birth certificate has his name as Geo.  His gravestone has Joseph Heine.

Robert Hanna
NYC
Researching:  CHANAN/HANAN/HANNE/HEINE/HINEY (Warsaw, Poland); BLUMENBLAT (Sarnaki, Poland); KARASIK, THOMASHOW/TOMOSHOFF, COHEN (Babruysk, Belarus); RUBINSTEIN, BUNDEROFF, PASTILNIK, NEMOYTEN, DISKIN (Minsk, Belarus).


Michele Lock
 

I have a great grand uncle Charles Lewis Lavine (Betzalel Eliezer) of Newark NJ, who on his WWI draft card wrote his birth date as either 1886 or 1887. On the back of the card, the draft board registar wrote "claims he (Lavine) wrote to Washington DC to get his correct birthdate". At that time, both of Charles' parents were still alive in NJ, and obviously they didn't know exactly what year their son was born in. I guess he thought some official in Washington would somehow have information on the birth year (from a census?).
As it turns out, Charles' great grand niece Michele (me) found the 1888 Russian Revision list from Lida (now Belarus), showing little Tzali Lev was 3 years old, so born in 1885. So Charles wasn't too far off from the actual year. I've had other relatives who were way off, sometimes by 5-6 years. 
--
Michele Lock

Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock and Kalon/Kolon in Zagare/Joniskis/Gruzdziai, Lithuania
Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock in Plunge/Telsiai in Lithuania
Rabinowitz in Papile, Lithuania and Riga, Latvia
Trisinsky/Trushinsky/Sturisky and Leybman in Dotnuva, Lithuania
Olitsky in Alytus, Suwalki, Poland/Lithuania
Gutman/Goodman in Czestochowa, Poland
Lavine/Lev/Lew in Trenton, New Jersey and Lida/Vilna gub., Belarus


Peter Cohen
 

When you examine New York City death certificate (and other records) of Eastern European immigrants, you will find that a very high percentage of those that give an exact date of birth claim they were born on the 15th. Also, far more people claim they were born December 25th than are likely to have actually been born that day. Take the dates of birth of Eastern European immigrants with a grain of salt.  They are still useful, in that they are an approximation of the person's age and allow you to determine if the person in the record is far too old or young to be the person you are looking for.
--
Peter Cohen
California