Topics

comparing two names מאניש and מזיש #names


Lee Jaffe
 

I'm turning again to the wisdom of the group for help interpreting a father's name on headstones belonging (by some accounts) to two brothers.

One, belonging to my great-grandfather Joseph Schwartz (1866-1921) reads:
יוסף בר מאניש

The second belongs to Samuel Schwartz (1861-1952) reads:
שלמה בן מויש

On the simplest level, I'm hoping the group can help make sense of these inscriptions.  I've searched all of the sources about Hebrew given names I could identify andI haven't been able to link either father's name to a Hebrew name I recognize (Maneesh?  Moish, not Moshe?).  But, on the other hand, both versions starting with a Mem doesn't rule out it being Emanuel (or does it?)   If you can point me to a source for these names, that would get me passed the first hurdle.

On a deeper level, I'm trying to figure out whether there is anything here that suggests (even slightly) that these two had the same father?  Could one be a typo?  A poor rendering of a badly remembered Hebrew name?

This isn't a random question.  For years, I've seen other trees which link my great-grandfather Joseph Schwartz (for whom I have no earlier family information) to the Schwartzstein family: father Emanuel Schwartzstein and his son Samuel (and Joseph's putative brother).  However, after years of looking, I've never managed to find any documentation showing a connection between Joseph and either Samuel or Emanuel.  I've tried to reach out to the owners of the Schwartzstein trees but they haven't responded to questions about what documentation they had.  Then, last month, MyHeritage matched me to three of Samuel's descendants via DNA , raising the stakes. But still, I'd like more evidence that Emanuel is indeed Joseph's father or that this Samuel (and not one of the many others) is Joseph's brother.  MH's "Theory of Family Relativity" shows a path from me through these other trees to each of these matches.  But I don't trust the trees.  

As luck would have it, I managed to get a photo of Joseph's gravestone last week and hit on the idea of comparing the inscriptions.  I traced a FindAGrave record linked from one of the Schwartzstein trees to a photo of Samuel Schwartz's grave (see attached).  As is so often the case, I'm just more confused.  I acknowledge all of the usual sources of uncertainties.  There is no hard-and-fast rule for converting old-world names into American and I don't trust entries in other trees without supporting documentation.  But then there is the DNA ... and I can't ignore that I have three matches to Samuel's descendants.... so, I feel I need to pursue every and any angle I can.

Thank you in advance for any help or pointers you can suggest.

Lee Jaffe
JAFFE / STEIN (SZTEJNSAPIR) / BRAUN / LUDWINOSKI
JOROFF / SCHWARTZ / KOSHKIN / 
RAPOPORT / WEINBLATT





yitschok@...
 

Munish is a Yiddish name, usually a nickname for Menachem, Emanuel could very possibly be the legal name for Menachem. 

About the discrepancy of the the 2 tombstones, I believe that the second has a typo, and would say it was supposed to be Munish, while it's missing the first vowel which is very common, the נ (Nun) was replaced with a ו (Vav) which is somewhat  similar looking.


Yitschok Margareten 


Bob Silverstein
 

Please share the DNA findings with us.  If possible, make sure you look at them on GEDmatch because it does a better job of showing the shared segments.


Bob Silverstein
bobsilverstein@...


Susan&David
 

Father's name would be pronounced Manish  on Joseph's stone.
Assuming the letter vav is an erroneously engraved nun on Samuel's stone, the pronunciation Manish would be the same. 
David Rosen
Boston, AM

On 10/5/2020 3:11 AM, Lee Jaffe wrote:
I'm turning again to the wisdom of the group for help interpreting a father's name on headstones belonging (by some accounts) to two brothers.

One, belonging to my great-grandfather Joseph Schwartz (1866-1921) reads:
יוסף בר מאניש

The second belongs to Samuel Schwartz (1861-1952) reads:
שלמה בן מויש

On the simplest level, I'm hoping the group can help make sense of these inscriptions.  I've searched all of the sources about Hebrew given names I could identify andI haven't been able to link either father's name to a Hebrew name I recognize (Maneesh?  Moish, not Moshe?).  But, on the other hand, both versions starting with a Mem doesn't rule out it being Emanuel (or does it?)   If you can point me to a source for these names, that would get me passed the first hurdle.

On a deeper level, I'm trying to figure out whether there is anything here that suggests (even slightly) that these two had the same father?  Could one be a typo?  A poor rendering of a badly remembered Hebrew name?

This isn't a random question.  For years, I've seen other trees which link my great-grandfather Joseph Schwartz (for whom I have no earlier family information) to the Schwartzstein family: father Emanuel Schwartzstein and his son Samuel (and Joseph's putative brother).  However, after years of looking, I've never managed to find any documentation showing a connection between Joseph and either Samuel or Emanuel.  I've tried to reach out to the owners of the Schwartzstein trees but they haven't responded to questions about what documentation they had.  Then, last month, MyHeritage matched me to three of Samuel's descendants via DNA , raising the stakes. But still, I'd like more evidence that Emanuel is indeed Joseph's father or that this Samuel (and not one of the many others) is Joseph's brother.  MH's "Theory of Family Relativity" shows a path from me through these other trees to each of these matches.  But I don't trust the trees.  

As luck would have it, I managed to get a photo of Joseph's gravestone last week and hit on the idea of comparing the inscriptions.  I traced a FindAGrave record linked from one of the Schwartzstein trees to a photo of Samuel Schwartz's grave (see attached).  As is so often the case, I'm just more confused.  I acknowledge all of the usual sources of uncertainties.  There is no hard-and-fast rule for converting old-world names into American and I don't trust entries in other trees without supporting documentation.  But then there is the DNA ... and I can't ignore that I have three matches to Samuel's descendants.... so, I feel I need to pursue every and any angle I can.

Thank you in advance for any help or pointers you can suggest.

Lee Jaffe
JAFFE / STEIN (SZTEJNSAPIR) / BRAUN / LUDWINOSKI
JOROFF / SCHWARTZ / KOSHKIN / 
RAPOPORT / WEINBLATT




Attachments:



YaleZuss@...
 

The second letter of the second name isn't a vav or a nun, but a zayin.  While I cannot rule out it's being an error, if it really is intended to be a zayin, the two names are unlikely to be the same.
 
Yale Zussman 


Lee Jaffe
 

Thank you to everyone who answered my question.  I think I have the answer that the two names are probably the same, with some wiggle room for possible transcription error.  (I'm sorry for any confusion caused by my own transcription error, using zayin in the subject line instead of vav).   -- Lee Jaffe


relly800@...
 

My thought too that the nun/vav difference is an error.
One tombstone is in yiddish (using the aramaic 'bar' for son of), accounting for the alef in the name, which is missing in the second tombstone, which is in Hebrew (with ben for son) of.
Relly Coleman