Finding history in Glasgow, Scotland and tracing un-named relative #unitedkingdom


RachelDoughty <Rachelmdoughty@...>
 

Hello, I'm a beginner, this is a great facility and I am happy to be here!

My Uncle and I have been tracing our Family tree to Glasgow. We have a blocker which I suspect cannot be overcome. But I will try!

In 1875 a relative moved to Glasgow. My Uncle suspects to afford that, she would have needed financial support as she was a barmaid. She had three illegitimate children. One is Arthur Solomon Micheal Canning. No Father is recorded on the birth certificate and two siblings followed in 1876 and 1877. The relative on the census was a tobacconist. The assumption is that she had a protector, who was the catalyst for her moving to Glasgow as well that the Father was unable to marry her for cultural or religious reasons. There is no doubt that the Father was Jewish, and I have a expect the name of Arthur would guide to a solution. This is because Micheal Canning is in all the children names. I have hunted high and low for Micheal, with so success in the census, over the years.

I know that Glasgow was a route from Baltic ports to New York, and the interesting link is Tabacco. My Uncle wonders if Canning might be a development from Koening, but my belief is Micheal and Solomon would be the surname link. However the bottom line is we have no local knowledge or tangible evidence.

I have tried searching for Glasgow links on Jewishgen and Tobacconists. Would anyone be able to give me a steer please?

Thank you so much,

Rachel Doughty


Jill Whitehead
 

Try Harvey Kaplan at the Scottish Jewish Archives Centre in Glasgow (SJAC have a website), and also the ScotlandsPeople website for BMDs and censuses.  

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK


Michael Tobias
 

For Scottish-Jewish research also contact me.

I have compiled a tree of virtually all Jews to ever live in Scotland. There are currently around 105,000 people on the tree from 1770 to the present day.

Michael Tobias
Glasgow, Scotland


Sherri Bobish
 

Rachel,

You might try searching old city directories.

The GenealogyIndexer site has the following:
https://genealogyindexer.org/
  1. United Kingdom

  2. 1907/1908 [United Kingdom] Jewish Year Book {d889}
  3. 1894 Commercial Directory of the Jews of the United Kingdom (Harfield)
  4. 1841 United Kingdom Business Directory 
Also, Ancestry.com has old U.K. city directories.  On Ancestry you can search with surname alone, or surname and then put occupation in the keyword field, and other various ways.

Old newspapers can be another source of information.  Perhaps your man was a tobacconist and took out ads for his shop in the papers?

Good luck in your search,

Sherri Bobish

Searching:
RATOWSKY / CHAIMSON (Ariogala, Lith.); LEFFENFELD / FINK / KALTER (Daliowa & Jasliska, Pol.)
BOJDA / BLEIWEISS (Tarnow & Tarnobrzeg, Pol.); WALTZMAN / WALZMAN (Ustrzyki Dolne, Pol.)
LEVY (Tyrawa Woloska, Pol.); SOLON / SOLAN / SOKOLSKY (Grodek, Bialystok, Pol.)
BOBISH / BLUMENKRANZ / APPEL / WEINER / ROSENBERG (Vysoko-Litovsk, Brest, Biala Podlaska)


rv Kaplan
 

Hi Rachel

The largest collection of archives about Jews in Scotland is held by the Scottish Jewish Archives Centre in Glasgow (www.sjac.org.uk  - email: info@... ). 

Some thoughts and questions:

1 - Do we know where/when Arthur Solomon Michael Canning was born?  I can't see a birth certificate listed on the website www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk  (the index for Scottish civil records) .

2 -  Do we know what happened to Arthur ?  Did he marry, have children? where/when did he die?

3 - What do you mean by 'the relative on the census'?  Do you have Arthur listed on a census? when/where?

4 - Did Arthur's mother marry?

5 - What makes you think the father was Jewish?

6 - Did all the illegitimate children have the same father?

7 - What do you mean by 'the name of Arthur would guide to a solution'?  Do you think the father was also called Arthur?

8 - I'd be surprised if the father was omitted from the birth certificate, yet the children were given the father's surname.

9 - Canning is not a Jewish surname that we know, though as you say, it could have been changed to Canning.  Not sure 'Koening' is a Jewish surname
     - and not one we've come across in Scotland.  Koenig maybe, not sure that would become Canning.

10 - A number of Jews in Glasgow were in the tobacco industry - involved in cigarette/cigar manufacture or retail.  There were some Jewish tobacconists,
but I suspect that very few of them advertised in the press.

11 So a bit of a puzzle and not sure what you would search for in Scotland in directories etc.  If you had an address from a birth certificate or census, you could search the 
Post Office Directory for Glasgow online (up to 1912:   https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/91168983 ) - but by no means all residents or businesses were listed. eg the 1875 Directory
has only 1 person called Canning - Francis Canning, a wholesale clothes merchant.  But nothing to suggest or confirm he was Jewish or prove he was the father of Arthur.

best wishes

Harvey Kaplan
Director
Scottish Jewish Archives Centre 


On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 at 09:57, RachelDoughty <Rachelmdoughty@...> wrote:
Hello, I'm a beginner, this is a great facility and I am happy to be here!

My Uncle and I have been tracing our Family tree to Glasgow. We have a blocker which I suspect cannot be overcome. But I will try!

In 1875 a relative moved to Glasgow. My Uncle suspects to afford that, she would have needed financial support as she was a barmaid. She had three illegitimate children. One is Arthur Solomon Micheal Canning. No Father is recorded on the birth certificate and two siblings followed in 1876 and 1877. The relative on the census was a tobacconist. The assumption is that she had a protector, who was the catalyst for her moving to Glasgow as well that the Father was unable to marry her for cultural or religious reasons. There is no doubt that the Father was Jewish, and I have a expect the name of Arthur would guide to a solution. This is because Micheal Canning is in all the children names. I have hunted high and low for Micheal, with so success in the census, over the years.

I know that Glasgow was a route from Baltic ports to New York, and the interesting link is Tabacco. My Uncle wonders if Canning might be a development from Koening, but my belief is Micheal and Solomon would be the surname link. However the bottom line is we have no local knowledge or tangible evidence.

I have tried searching for Glasgow links on Jewishgen and Tobacconists. Would anyone be able to give me a steer please?

Thank you so much,

Rachel Doughty


RachelDoughty <Rachelmdoughty@...>
 

Thanks for taking the time to write Harvey, 

1. 11 December 1874, Anderston, Glasgow

2. He married in July 1898 in Wolverhampton to Leah Field. I have found a relative descended from him and her tree has them down as half sisters and brothers. But looking at the detail I think that is speculative evidence. He died in 1954 in Wolverhampton

3. I have him on the 1881 Scottish census in Kelvin District with only the Mother listed as head. She changed her name from Arnold to Canning between 1881 and 1891. By then they had moved to Wolverhampton. He's listed each ten years in England but has born in Scotland. 

4. There's no record (5 separate people, no findings) 

5. Family history and recollection. Records were deliberately burnt, sadly by my Grandfather. My Uncle saw that happen. My Grandma discussed the concerns that Grandfather had. His fear was during the war, of his fate, should there have been a different outcome.  

6. I really don't have evidence. But the fact that they lived together, and age wise were ages 7, 4, 3 - there's a possibility of the same father. I suppose I need to do a DNA test to check and I need to research which of those would tell me reliably that I have Jewish ancestry. 

7. Names do run in families. So I'm basing my assumption on that. I see it in other relatives. But it's not proven and probably a bit dangerous to assume!

8. Perhaps an unmarried Mother with 3 children at that time would be frowned upon and she had moved and changed names to avoid social shame. If she couldn't marry because of religious or social means (the Father could have been married), but there is no trace of a Father. 

9. I know, there's a big hole in evidence sadly. 

10. There were trade papers in England. I thought perhaps the same might exist in Scotland. 

11. Thanks I'll see what I can find. 

Thanks so much. I am grateful. 

Best regards

Rachel

Sent from my phone


-------- Original message --------
From: Harvey Kaplan <rvlkaplan@...>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2022, 19:02
To: main@..., Rachelmdoughty@...
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Finding history in Glasgow, Scotland and tracing un-named relative #unitedkingdom
Hi Rachel

The largest collection of archives about Jews in Scotland is held by the Scottish Jewish Archives Centre in Glasgow (www.sjac.org.uk  - email: info@... ). 

Some thoughts and questions:

1 - Do we know where/when Arthur Solomon Michael Canning was born?  I can't see a birth certificate listed on the website www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk  (the index for Scottish civil records) .

2 -  Do we know what happened to Arthur ?  Did he marry, have children? where/when did he die?

3 - What do you mean by 'the relative on the census'?  Do you have Arthur listed on a census? when/where?

4 - Did Arthur's mother marry?

5 - What makes you think the father was Jewish?

6 - Did all the illegitimate children have the same father?

7 - What do you mean by 'the name of Arthur would guide to a solution'?  Do you think the father was also called Arthur?

8 - I'd be surprised if the father was omitted from the birth certificate, yet the children were given the father's surname.

9 - Canning is not a Jewish surname that we know, though as you say, it could have been changed to Canning.  Not sure 'Koening' is a Jewish surname
     - and not one we've come across in Scotland.  Koenig maybe, not sure that would become Canning.

10 - A number of Jews in Glasgow were in the tobacco industry - involved in cigarette/cigar manufacture or retail.  There were some Jewish tobacconists,
but I suspect that very few of them advertised in the press.

11 So a bit of a puzzle and not sure what you would search for in Scotland in directories etc.  If you had an address from a birth certificate or census, you could search the 
Post Office Directory for Glasgow online (up to 1912:   https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/91168983 ) - but by no means all residents or businesses were listed. eg the 1875 Directory
has only 1 person called Canning - Francis Canning, a wholesale clothes merchant.  But nothing to suggest or confirm he was Jewish or prove he was the father of Arthur.

best wishes

Harvey Kaplan
Director
Scottish Jewish Archives Centre 


On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 at 09:57, RachelDoughty <Rachelmdoughty@...> wrote:
Hello, I'm a beginner, this is a great facility and I am happy to be here!

My Uncle and I have been tracing our Family tree to Glasgow. We have a blocker which I suspect cannot be overcome. But I will try!

In 1875 a relative moved to Glasgow. My Uncle suspects to afford that, she would have needed financial support as she was a barmaid. She had three illegitimate children. One is Arthur Solomon Micheal Canning. No Father is recorded on the birth certificate and two siblings followed in 1876 and 1877. The relative on the census was a tobacconist. The assumption is that she had a protector, who was the catalyst for her moving to Glasgow as well that the Father was unable to marry her for cultural or religious reasons. There is no doubt that the Father was Jewish, and I have a expect the name of Arthur would guide to a solution. This is because Micheal Canning is in all the children names. I have hunted high and low for Micheal, with so success in the census, over the years.

I know that Glasgow was a route from Baltic ports to New York, and the interesting link is Tabacco. My Uncle wonders if Canning might be a development from Koening, but my belief is Micheal and Solomon would be the surname link. However the bottom line is we have no local knowledge or tangible evidence.

I have tried searching for Glasgow links on Jewishgen and Tobacconists. Would anyone be able to give me a steer please?

Thank you so much,

Rachel Doughty


Susan J. Gordon
 

Hi and this is just a side-bar but... about 20+ years ago, my husband and I were vacationing in Barbados when we started chatting with a few couples with Scottish accents. When we mentioned that we were Jews, they said they were, too! Until then, we had never met or even known about Scottish Jews, but their "history" was - some time in the late 19th century, their Galician ancestors boarded a ship in England (probably Southhampton) heading to America. When the ship docked in a busy harbor, they got off (!) People spoke English and the travelers thought they had arrived in the New World. Somewhat later, they figured out that they had not crossed the Atlantic, but since they liked Scotland, they stayed there. 

Susan J. Gordon
New York
ZBARAZH - Bialazurker
SKALAT - Schoenhaut, Lempert
LVOV - Lempert


rv Kaplan
 

This is a common myth. 

Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe would sail from ports such as Hamburg, Bremen, Rotterdam or Libau.  It was common for passengers going to the USA to sail to Hull or Grimsby and then travel across to Liverpool or Glasgow for the onward journey to the USA.  Ships leaving England for the USA would most likely be leaving from Liverpool and wouldn't normally stop off in Scotland on the way.  No need, as Glasgow was also a major port for emigration to the USA.  Also can't imagine ships from Southampton going all the way up to Scotland on their way to the USA.  

I can't believe that no one asked or nobody told them how long the journey to the US would take - and the tickets would mention the stops.  And the passengers must have spoken to each other on the journey.  If a few passengers got off the boat thinking they had already reached the US, why wouldn't lots more get off.  Alternatively, surely the passengers would ask either crew or fellow passengers if this was the USA they had reached?  And surely they knew that the USA was the last stop in their journey and everyone would be getting off the ship.

All these journeys will be documented - eg passenger lists.  But I think the stories you refer to make no sense and were myths.

Harvey Kaplan
Director
Scottish Jewish Archives Centre
Glasgow


On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 22:17, Susan J. Gordon via groups.jewishgen.org <sjgwed=aol.com@...> wrote:
Hi and this is just a side-bar but... about 20+ years ago, my husband and I were vacationing in Barbados when we started chatting with a few couples with Scottish accents. When we mentioned that we were Jews, they said they were, too! Until then, we had never met or even known about Scottish Jews, but their "history" was - some time in the late 19th century, their Galician ancestors boarded a ship in England (probably Southhampton) heading to America. When the ship docked in a busy harbor, they got off (!) People spoke English and the travelers thought they had arrived in the New World. Somewhat later, they figured out that they had not crossed the Atlantic, but since they liked Scotland, they stayed there. 

Susan J. Gordon
New York
ZBARAZH - Bialazurker
SKALAT - Schoenhaut, Lempert
LVOV - Lempert


Michael Tobias
 

Re people sailing from England to a Scottish port and thinking they were in the USA - that is an old wives tale like names being changed at Ellis Island. It never happened.

Michael Tobias
Glasgow, Scotland


Jill Whitehead
 

What was more likely to happen was that passengers who disembarked at Hull, or any other East Coast Port such as Grimsby or Leith (for Edinburgh) or Newcastle upon Tyne, may have found:

a) They had changed their minds, due to sea sickness across the Baltic and North Sea, and could not face another trip across the Atlantic (a story in my family), so stayed in Britain
b) Had only bought a ticket for Britain with the intention of buying another ticket to USA later on, either weeks, months or years later on. They stayed to work and save - some never went onto USA, but others did (usually those who had not naturalized British in my family)
c) Did not have enough money or had had their money stolen en route, so stayed in Britain. In the 19th century, the UK was a favoured migrant destination, especially its industrial areas in the North of England, Scotland round Glasgow, South Wales and the Midlands around Birmingham. 

 There have always been Scottish Jews - my family came to Edinburgh in waves in late 1860's and early 1870's from Baltic Poland/Lithuania, where there were already strong cross Baltic/North Sea trading routes. Many Jewish families in Edinburgh came from the same area, and they also settled in NE England where there were trading routes to Newcastle and other local ports. 

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK


Susan J. Gordon
 

Hi again,

My husband remembers our story a little differently, and I think he's correct -

The Scottish Jews we met in Barbados said in the late 19th century, their ancestors set sail for the US from an European port - maybe Hamburg - and sailed west. But when a big storm arose, making the trip hazardous, the captain made an unexpected stop at a port in Scotland. He ordered everyone off the ship to wait out the storm. This took a few days, and that's when the ancestors of the couples we met decided to stay in Scotland (which, they said, some people thought was the US.)

Susan J. Gordon
New York
ZBARAZH - Bialazurker
SKALAT - Schoenhaut, Lempert
LVOV - Lempert

<<Hi and this is just a side-bar but... about 20+ years ago, my husband and I were vacationing in Barbados when we started chatting with a few couples with Scottish accents. When we mentioned that we were Jews, they said they were, too! Until then, we had never met or even known about Scottish Jews, but their "history" was - some time in the late 19th century, their Galician ancestors boarded a ship in England (probably Southhampton) heading to America. When the ship docked in a busy harbor, they got off (!) People spoke English and the travelers thought they had arrived in the New World. Somewhat later, they figured out that they had not crossed the Atlantic, but since they liked Scotland, they stayed there. >>


janllb@...
 

Option B) happened in my LASTMAN and KUTNER families, in that a stop in the UK (Glasgow and London respectively) for several months to a couple of years to raise funds both for passage and for North American resettlement, was made (usually by the men immigrating ahead if their families). I assume North America was thought to be more desirable esp pre WWI due to friends and relatives already being here.
--
Jan Lastman, Toronto ON CANADA  janllb@...

Researching: LASTMAN/N HOLLAND=>Lublin early 1700s; mid-1800s=>POLAND: Łódź, Radom, Warsaw, Szydlowiec, Ostrowiec; GERMANY: Leipzig, Breslau. Married KLAJMAN, KAUFMAN, LEDERMAN, KAC, CUKIER, MANDELSBERG (to DAVIDSON), STROSBERG, WAJCHANDLER, KUTNER/KUTCHINSKY=> Toronto, Philadelphia, Rio de Janeiro pre/post WWI. Survivors=> France, Israel, Australia, Sweden, USA
 ———————————————————————————
Also researching: SINGER/ZYNGIER POLAND: Janow Poldaski=>Toronto, ?Columbus OH? pre WW1 married SCHAFER/SHAFIR UKRAINE: Linitz/Illinits=>Toronto, Detroit, NYC 
 ———————————————————————————
See also: Rapoport-Quint Tree
 https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-69044942/rapoport-quint


rv Kaplan
 

Migration in stages was very common at that time, with East European Jewish immigrants often moving around cities and towns in Britain and Ireland, before settling down, or
later moving on to the USA, Canada, South Africa etc. (Also happened a number of times in my family.) In Scotland, they could leave by ship from Glasgow.

Not so sure about the story of a ship from Hamburg stopping at a Scottish port.   I've never heard of weather causing an immigrant ship to make an unscheduled stop at a Scottish port. 
Wouldn't think they would be anywhere near Scotland and it was most likely that any stop would have been at an English port. 

Harvey Kaplan
Scottish Jewish Archives Centre
Glasgow

On Sat, 6 Aug 2022 at 16:54, <janllb@...> wrote:
Option B) happened in my LASTMAN and KUTNER families, in that a stop in the UK (Glasgow and London respectively) for several months to a couple of years to raise funds both for passage and for North American resettlement, was made (usually by the men immigrating ahead if their families). I assume North America was thought to be more desirable esp pre WWI due to friends and relatives already being here.
--
Jan Lastman, Toronto ON CANADA  janllb@...

Researching: LASTMAN/N HOLLAND=>Lublin early 1700s; mid-1800s=>POLAND: Łódź, Radom, Warsaw, Szydlowiec, Ostrowiec; GERMANY: Leipzig, Breslau. Married KLAJMAN, KAUFMAN, LEDERMAN, KAC, CUKIER, MANDELSBERG (to DAVIDSON), STROSBERG, WAJCHANDLER, KUTNER/KUTCHINSKY=> Toronto, Philadelphia, Rio de Janeiro pre/post WWI. Survivors=> France, Israel, Australia, Sweden, USA
 ———————————————————————————
Also researching: SINGER/ZYNGIER POLAND: Janow Poldaski=>Toronto, ?Columbus OH? pre WW1 married SCHAFER/SHAFIR UKRAINE: Linitz/Illinits=>Toronto, Detroit, NYC 
 ———————————————————————————
See also: Rapoport-Quint Tree
 https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-69044942/rapoport-quint


Jill Whitehead
 

Sometimes Atlantic ships stopped en route in Ireland. If there was a storm, it was more likely to have meant a stop off in Ireland, whether scheduled or unscheduled.   

Harvey is right about travelling in stages, but this may have been for various reasons. One of my Brown Edinburgh family emigrated to Cape Town, South Africa in 1906 because she had been promised to a man from Lithuania. Another Brown family member emigrated even earlier from Edinburgh to Sydney, Australia in 1886, aged only 17, because she had been promised to a man from Lithuania as well. 

One of my Abrahams (formerly Ceglarski of Suwalki) family arrived in Birmingham in 1870, and stayed until 1890. His reasons for leaving 20 years later seemed to be:
1) He had a very large number of children and needed work to support them (but he left his older children behind with his brother in Manchester) and
2) He had a brother in St Louis whom he joined before going onto Chicago where he called himself Siegel. 

I have yet another example where the stay in Britain was a lot longer than 20 years. My great grand uncle  Barnet Servian (Baruch Serwianski) had arrived in Liverpool with my great grandfather in 1875. He married in 1879 and had four Liverpool born children. His wife died and he remarried. But because he never naturalized, he got caught by the UK 1905 Aliens Act. He and his 2nd wife and four grown up children emigrated to Chicago in 1905 (where they had family), and some went onto Detroit and Toronto.  

There are also some examples of criss-crossing the Atlantic over time with years spent in one country and then the other. Another Servian spent 6 months of each year in New York and six months in Manchester (where he had had business interests).

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK