Geni Family Trees - Privacy and Baptism Concerns #general
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Bill Katz <wabillkatz@...>
I would like to post a caution about the privacy of information on family trees created online with Geni and about the use made of profiles of Holocaust victims by the Mormon church aka Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) and its members. I have been researching both sides of my family for nearly twenty years. Much of the information I learned came from Jewish Genealogy. Other details from Yad Vashem. A few years ago I started using the online family tree tool Geni. This week I learned that the details about my ancestors on Geni are neither under my control nor safe from what I consider to be abuse by the zealous Mormons. About a week ago, while researching a family member, I came across an entry made for him on Geni by a stranger. I emailed this person and asked how he was related and what he knew about my relative. He evaded my questions about how he is related to that particular family member and my family in general. Soon afterwards, he started making additions and changes to my Geni family tree. He eventually admitted he is not a relative and sent me a strident note claiming the right to make any changes he wanted to the Geni tree I had created. He also told me his goal was to "memorialize" Holocaust victims. This is a term used by the Mormon church to designate a ceremony in which Jewish victims of the Holocaust are baptized by the Mormon church. I made a complaint to Geni about a stranger changing my tree and tried to delete it. I found that there is no option to delete a tree once it is set up. Frantic to preserve the privacy and respect for the living and deceased family members on my tree, I removed birth and death dates and removed each person's name and photo from my tree. Today I received the following email from a support person at Geni. "I'm afraid it's you who have broken the rules, here. There is no prohibition -- legally, or on Geni -- on creating genealogy profiles for persons living or deceased, no matter how distantly related they may be. Geni is a shared family tree and everyone is invited to collaborate. I've undone the vandalism that you initiated three days ago.
Not only does Geni not recognize the tree as the property of the person who set it up, but it considers the tree as just a branch of its “global tree”. And the property of Geni. In my case, it told me through matching records, that I am related to 13 million people on Geni. It achieves this astounding number in its unique way – my tree has a distant relative who is married. My relative's wife has a tree with her own family, none of whom I am related to except her husband. And this multiplies exponentially as members of my cousin's wife tree bring in other trees through their spouses. When Geni finds a matching record, e.g. my cousin, it links both trees. When I agreed to a Geni prompt that the matching record in his wife's tree and in my tree were the same person, I did not expect Geni to decide we had one family tree. This is an insidiuous way of taking control of a person's family tree. One reason Geni gives for not honouring my request to delete my tree is that other users – my cousin's wife – are connected to my tree. There is a page on Jewish Genealogy – The Issue of Mormon Baptism of Jewish Holocaust Dead and Other Jews - that describes an LDS promise in 1995 to desist from this practice, and its subsequent failure to do so. Here is a link to that page - https://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html#A The article references a database containing the records of Jewish martyrs held by LDS, steps to search this data for your relatives and an address to write to demand removal of your ancestors from it. Be aware as well that LDS/Mormon church maintains databases called Vital Records which have data on Holocaust victims by region. There is a Vital Record page for #David-Horodok, the shtetl that my family came from in what was then #Poland and is now in #Belarus. My great-grandfather and several members of his family who were murdered in the Holocaust are listed in these records. It is my understanding that Vital Records lists Jews who have been baptized by the Mormon/LDS church. After my Geni experience, I caution others about the implications of maintaining family records on Geni. Be aware that MyHeritage, also used to create family trees, is part of the same company. MyHeritage is supposed to be more private but I read an article that suggests that it may be possible to see MyHeritage records under certain circumstances. Bill Katz Victoria BC, Canada
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Dahn Cukier
Always, always read the various links you check when signing up to a site ESPECIALLY one where you supply information. Reading a newspaper and registering without a CC, I have no problem checking their boxes. But when I began uploading to findagrave.com, I read carefully the "terms and conditions" and the "privacy statement". Only then did I register. Findagrave - then - and maybe today, the photos and information are the users, when the MOD asked me to remove photos, I was able to so so and then checked with a lawyer if the request had merit. The MOD request did not have merit, but now I review the profile of the requester and only upload a photo after getting confirmation the request is from a family member. Unfortunately, I have not been able to visit cemeteries for 2 years but hope to get back in action one day. Dahn Cukier When you start to read readin, how do you know the fellow that wrote the readin, wrote the readin right? Festus Hagen Long Branch Saloon Dodge City, Kansas (Gunsmoke)
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020, 4:23:58 AM GMT+2, Bill Katz <wabillkatz@...> wrote:
I would like to post a caution about the privacy of information on family trees created online with Geni and about the use made of profiles of Holocaust victims by the Mormon church aka Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) and its members. I have been researching both sides of my family for nearly twenty years. Much of the information I learned came from Jewish Genealogy. Other details from Yad Vashem. A few years ago I started using the online family tree tool Geni. This week I learned that the details about my ancestors on Geni are neither under my control nor safe from what I consider to be abuse by the zealous Mormons. About a week ago, while researching a family member, I came across an entry made for him on Geni by a stranger. I emailed this person and asked how he was related and what he knew about my relative. He evaded my questions about how he is related to that particular family member and my family in general. Soon afterwards, he started making additions and changes to my Geni family tree. He eventually admitted he is not a relative and sent me a strident note claiming the right to make any changes he wanted to the Geni tree I had created. He also told me his goal was to "memorialize" Holocaust victims. This is a term used by the Mormon church to designate a ceremony in which Jewish victims of the Holocaust are baptized by the Mormon church. I made a complaint to Geni about a stranger changing my tree and tried to delete it. I found that there is no option to delete a tree once it is set up. Frantic to preserve the privacy and respect for the living and deceased family members on my tree, I removed birth and death dates and removed each person's name and photo from my tree. Today I received the following email from a support person at Geni. "I'm afraid it's you who have broken the rules, here. There is no prohibition -- legally, or on Geni -- on creating genealogy profiles for persons living or deceased, no matter how distantly related they may be. Geni is a shared family tree and everyone is invited to collaborate. I've undone the vandalism that you initiated three days ago.
Not only does Geni not recognize the tree as the property of the person who set it up, but it considers the tree as just a branch of its “global tree”. And the property of Geni. In my case, it told me through matching records, that I am related to 13 million people on Geni. It achieves this astounding number in its unique way – my tree has a distant relative who is married. My relative's wife has a tree with her own family, none of whom I am related to except her husband. And this multiplies exponentially as members of my cousin's wife tree bring in other trees through their spouses. When Geni finds a matching record, e.g. my cousin, it links both trees. When I agreed to a Geni prompt that the matching record in his wife's tree and in my tree were the same person, I did not expect Geni to decide we had one family tree. This is an insidiuous way of taking control of a person's family tree. One reason Geni gives for not honouring my request to delete my tree is that other users – my cousin's wife – are connected to my tree. There is a page on Jewish Genealogy – The Issue of Mormon Baptism of Jewish Holocaust Dead and Other Jews - that describes an LDS promise in 1995 to desist from this practice, and its subsequent failure to do so. Here is a link to that page - https://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html#A The article references a database containing the records of Jewish martyrs held by LDS, steps to search this data for your relatives and an address to write to demand removal of your ancestors from it. Be aware as well that LDS/Mormon church maintains databases called Vital Records which have data on Holocaust victims by region. There is a Vital Record page for #David-Horodok, the shtetl that my family came from in what was then #Poland and is now in #Belarus. My great-grandfather and several members of his family who were murdered in the Holocaust are listed in these records. It is my understanding that Vital Records lists Jews who have been baptized by the Mormon/LDS church. After my Geni experience, I caution others about the implications of maintaining family records on Geni. Be aware that MyHeritage, also used to create family trees, is part of the same company. MyHeritage is supposed to be more private but I read an article that suggests that it may be possible to see MyHeritage records under certain circumstances. Bill Katz Victoria BC, Canada
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David
First, I want to put myself into perspective:- 1) I am an avid Geni user. Also, this is true for those of us who have family connections to any of the big Rabbinic families, whose trees are generally well documented (although plenty of holes also exist). I hope, though, that they don't make a bid to dunk the Geni disks and hard drives in a mikva [=natural pool] - because this will void the warranty (to put it lightly) <Joke> - and might be cause to need to examine the halachic [=Jewish Law] issues with such a scenario. Thinking about it, I could also stand outside one of the cemeteries and say the "mi sheberach" [= Prayer for the Departed] for "the souls of all those who are buried here", but I don't expect that I will be doing this. Or I could stand outside one of the hospitals and say the "mi sheberach" prayer for "all the ill people who are hospitalised here". In the former case, it is up to the family to decide whether they appreciate this, and in the latter case it is (in most cases) up to the person himself. David Ziants Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
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On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:23 PM, Bill Katz wrote:
Bill - thanks for your informative post. The word "memorialize" is used by others than the LDS, and whilst personally I agree with many if not all of the points you have made, I hope that you are not incorrectly casting aspersions against the LDS, amongst which I have a number of both work and family history colleagues. Take Facebook, for example. It includes advice about how to memorialize a person's page (https://www.facebook.com/help/www/1111566045566400/?helpref=hc_fnav). I don't think that they are an LDS organisation. My own family website includes the words, "The site's purpose is to honour the memory of our forebears without whom, of course, we would not be here, and to provide a photographic archive and historical record of our families at large." but I could so easily have used a word like memorialise - and no, I'm not LDS. Are you 100% certain that the person who is the object of your ire is a member of the LDS and is doing what you suggest? Best wishes Joyaa ANTARES, Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
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Jeffrey Herrmann
Thanks, Bill, for that lengthy description of your experience with Geni. If I am not mistaken, FamilySearch also takes the position that once you post a tree, they own it.
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Max Heffler
IMHO, the whole point of genealogy is to create the most accurate record of our ancestry. Collaborative sites, like geni, provide the best possibility of progressive correctness for this record. When mistakes are found, they are corrected. There is no way I would have the accuracy I do have without this collaboration, i.e. if my tree remained in a silo of isolated privacy. I have reconnected so many formerly-lost lines using a combination of geni, MyHeritage, Ancestry and DNA testing.
Full disclosure: I am a geni curator
Max Heffler Houston, TX -- Web sites I manage - Personal home page, Greater Houston Jewish Genealogical Society, Woodside Civic Club, Skala, Ukraine KehilalLink, Joniskelis, Lithuania KehilaLink, and pet volunteer project - Yizkor book project: www.texsys.com/websites.html
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ccelaynarose3@...
Well these posts explain a few things....I recently found that someone took a line back on my family tree to the 300's BCE maybe, I don't remember exactly, but it was in that time period anyway. The name eludes me but he began with an E but the town....was Asgard! LIke Thor!
I did some research and cannot locate a real ancient town of Asgard. and now I'm stuck with it, can't verify it nor can I delete any of the garbage from the verified information. What a waste! Thank you for presenting this information and listening to me vent! Connie Carter Kissimmee. Florida
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Sarah L Meyer
I put a small tree on Geni years ago and keep getting messages about smart matches with my own My Heritage tree. I too would like to delete it. If there is a process to do that, please let me know. I have not added to it and will not. That said, I am not sure that this person is LDS, but if he is, he is breaking their rules.
-- Sarah L Meyer Georgetown TX ANK(I)ER, BIGOS, KARMELEK, PERLSTADT, STOKFISZ, SZPIL(T)BAUM, Poland BIRGARDOVSKY, EDELBERG, HITE (CHAIT), PERCHIK Russia (southern Ukraine) and some Latvia or Lithuania https://www.sarahsgenies.com
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Martyn Woolf
I have read the various comments about GENI and the Mormons. Some considerable number of years ago I was Chairman of the Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain, when the question arose of Mormons baptizing both Holocaust victims and other Jewish dead. I took it up very strongly with the Mormons here in the U.K. and received a positive assurance that the practice had been abandoned because of the number of complaints. I believe that we received a letter confirming this.
In any event I agree with a number of comments about it over the years, that it does not make a great deal of difference; perhaps the more deceased Jews that are baptised by the Mormons, the better the Mormons will be. (That should attract a bit of correspondence). As to GENI, this is a site that does arouse my ire. It is not so much a genealogical site as a place to find "Mishpocha". If I need the name of my ex sister-in-law's cousin's chauffeur, that is the place to go. For serious genealogical research, it is not. A lady asked me a year or two ago for some help on her tree. She said that she had been "doing" her tree for nearly a year and only had about 32,000 relatives. I told her that I had been researching my family for more than twenty years and still had not found anywhere near 1,000. The difference is that my tree is sourced. If people want to "Hoover up" what purports to be fact, from such sites, let them do so. It probably makes them very happy. Having now established myself as a grumpy old man, there is one tip that I would pass on and which I have used for years. I have the habit of putting surnames in upper case when I am 100% certain of my view. It allows me to see very easily when some antecedent needs some more work. Martyn Woolf London
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Jeffrey Herrmann
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 09:12 AM, Max Heffler wrote:
You claim “Collaborative sites, like geni, provide the best possibility of progressive correctness for this record.” What is your evidence for this bold assertion? The anecdotal evidence reported by many users of these sites suggests that the posted trees become progressively more incorrect as careless users cut and paste each others errors into ever more trees. This is the antithesis of “progressive correctness.”Jeffrey Herrmann London
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Stephen Katz
I'm grateful to Bill Katz (no relation, as far as I'm aware, but hey, who knows) for his thoughtful and detailed exposition of his bad experiences with geni.com. I have had had the same horrid experiences. I naively started a geni tree in the very early days of my adventure in genealogy. At some point, I realized that it had essentially been hijacked by others, who were adding all sorts of rubbish to it. When I delved into geni's policies, I became aware that when you put a tree on that site you lose control over it. I did not contact geni as Bill did, so I did not receive the unacceptable response from geni "support" that he did -- which included the appalling accusation that he'd "vandalized" his own tree! As I've said before in this forum and others, whenever anyone asks me about genealogy websites, I advise them to avoid geni at all costs.
To a poster who advised reading a site's policies before adding a tree to it: sure, one might eventually glean from the site's turgid and opaque policy recitations that someone who creates a tree on geni loses control over it, but how many prople have the time, inclination, or ability to do this? This is, indeed, what this and many other sites rely on to effectively hide how the sites actually work, and why the EU and other jurisdictions have felt the need to address it. Stephen Katz USA
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ELIAS SAVADA
I agree with Jeffrey,
I gave up on Geni because it does allow people to make massive mistakes that are impossible to correct. Years ago I added a small piece of my own branch there. Someone added children for my late sister. She had none. I should know. While I might look for hints on that website, no way would I want others to mess with my full tree. Too many hands in the pot.
From: Jeffrey Herrmann  --
Elias Savada Bethesda MD esavada@...
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David Lewin
That is precisely why web-based genealogy trees cannot be
trusted.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I have long since stopped adding anything to mine David Lewin London
At 14:47 28/10/2020, Stephen Katz via groups.jewishgen.org wrote:
I'm grateful to Bill Katz (no relation, as far as I'm aware, but hey, who knows) for his thoughtful and detailed exposition of his bad experiences with geni.com. I have had had the same horrid experiences. I naively started a geni tree in the very early days of my adventure in genealogy. At some point, I realized that it had essentially been hijacked by others, who were adding all sorts of rubbish to it. When I delved into geni's policies, I became aware that when you put a tree on that site you lose control over it. I did not contact geni as Bill did, so I did not receive the unacceptable response from geni "support" that he did -- which included the appalling accusation that he'd "vandalized" his own tree! As I've said before in this forum and others, whenever anyone asks me about genealogy websites, I advise them to avoid geni at all costs.
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Max Heffler
Just like Wikipedia provide the ability for correcting the incorrect, my tree is infinitely more correct as people have found and suggested corrections, which I have gladly made. This would be impossible with all of the siloed incorrect private trees. Seems every private siloed tree has the same and different errors that do not get corrected. I prefer progressive correctness to leave those that follow me after I am gone
Max Heffler Houston
From: main@... [mailto:main@...]
On Behalf Of Jeffrey Herrmann via groups.jewishgen.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:17 AM To: main@... Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Geni Family Trees - Privacy and Baptism Concerns #general
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 09:12 AM, Max Heffler wrote: You claim “Collaborative sites, like geni, provide the best possibility of progressive correctness for this record.”
Jeffrey Herrmann -- Max Heffler
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lydgateaction@...
Except that it isn't anything like Wikipedia. There are a huge number of problems with this type of "genealogy" of which erroneous data is just one. But even at this level: Sheffield, UK
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Jx. Gx.
Bill,
Its unfortunate you had such a bad experience with Geni. I never post my family tree on any site because once you do its tantamount to tacit acceptance for the site owners and anyone else with access to your tree to do with it as they please. In my experience with Geni, a woman researched my relatives and posted them on the Geni tree as her ancestors. When I questioned her about this she finally fessed up and agreed they weren't related to her. I asked her to remove them from her tree and never responded to me. Send me a private message and I'll give you a suggestion of what you can do in your case. Jeff Gee Arizona, USA
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Nancy Reicher
You may be the only honest on of all the curators, then maybe not. I know a curator and he has changed things on my verry small tree that I put up on Geni , when Geni was first alive. The things he has changed are all wrong. He refuses to do anything to help that situation. I am sorry I ever put tose two generations onto Geni. Now My trees, going back to the 1600s are all on my computers. They are shared with relatives only, and I do share very willingly.
-- Nancy L. Reicher Kansas City MO
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Dan Bodenheimer
Bill, you wrote that someone, "told me his goal was to 'memorialize' Holocaust victims." and that "this is a term used by the Mormon church to designate a ceremony in which Jewish victims of the Holocaust are baptized by the Mormon church." I do not agree with your premise, as I have a goal of "Memorializing" Holocaust victims so that they are never forgotten, so that we have pictures of real people, and so that we all can see that relatives linked to us were lost. All this makes it more real, and solidifies the fact that this should Never Happen Again. I use the term memorialize, and it has nothing to do with the old LDS baptism issue from many years ago, which they refer to as "posthumous baptisms" or "proxy baptisms", not memorials.
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I agree with Max. Geni is by far the best tool we have for Jewish genealogy at the moment. All of the best Jewish genealogists use it. How do I know? Because on Geni we can all see each other's work, correct mistakes and learn new information about resources in our areas of interest. Sadly, some people think genealogy is about hiding yourself and your family. Nothing could be more wrong. The more you share, the more you will learn. As for Holocaust victims, we have on Geni various projects concerning the Holocaust, which are another great tool. See the umbrella project at https://www.geni.com/projects/Holocaust-The-Final-Solution/10996 To learn more about why everyone should be using Geni for building their trees, please see my old blog at https://schoenblog.com/?p=712 Randy Schoenberg
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Max Heffler
Nancy, Curators are more restricted now for private profiles.
From: main@... [mailto:main@...]
On Behalf Of Nancy Reicher via groups.jewishgen.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:43 PM To: main@... Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Geni Family Trees - Privacy and Baptism Concerns #general
You may be the only honest on of all the curators, then maybe not. I know a curator and he has changed things on my verry small tree that I put up on Geni , when Geni was first alive. The things he has changed are all wrong. He refuses
to do anything to help that situation. I am sorry I ever put tose two generations onto Geni. Now My trees, going back to the 1600s are all on my computers. They are shared with relatives only, and I do share very willingly. -- Max Heffler
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