Help needed to interpret details in Offenbach Jüdische Einwohnermeldekartei #germany


sohail.husain@...
 

The attached image is of my grandfather’s index card in the Meldekartei. In the lower left quarter are details of his movements. Most of these relate to time spent in the Prussian Army. For example, he went to Darmstadt in 1909 for his national service in Infantry Regiment 115. However, I have several questions about the entries and hope someone can help with answers.

 

For most of the various recorded comings and goings two dates are shown, one above the other. In all but one instance, the first date is a few days after the second. So why are there two dates?

 

In November 1912 he appears to have gone to Landau for 10 months. But Landau at that time was in Bavaria, whose armed forced were quite separate from the Prussian Army. So why would he have gone there?

 

I cannot read the characters after ‘Landau’ or after ‘Wiesbaden’. Any suggestions?

 

The final ‘linked’ dates on the card are 21 November 1916 (midway through WW1) and 1 August 1914 (the day the Kaiser ordered full mobilisation). So these are almost two years apart and appear to be linked with a return from Wiesbaden. Perhaps he was wounded in 1916 and returned home, but that doesn’t explain the 1914 entry. Any ideas about this?

 

I have searched for answers in Offenbach and in online databases without success, so hoping someone seeing this might have encountered something similar and found answers.

 

Sohail Husain (Hampshire, UK)

Searching for Grünebaum and Reiss




Ines Klein
 

Hello Sohail,
I try to answer a few of your questions.

Maybe the 2 dates in the records are the day the move was reported and the day when the move occured. But this is not sure.
The last entry 1.8.14 is separated by a bold line, so I think, that is an entry regarding his father.

To your second question. The Infantry Regiment 115 was stationed in Darmstadt. So I think, this is not Landau in Bavaria. This is Landau in Hesse. Today this Landau is a part of Bad Arolsen and not so far from Darmstadt.

kindly
Ines Klein


Ernst-Peter Winter
 

Hi Sohail,


For most of the various recorded comings and goings two
dates are shown, one above the other. In all but one
instance, the first date is a few days after the second. So
why are there two dates?
It may be the date of departure and the date of registration.

In November 1912 he appears to have gone to Landau for 10
months. But Landau at that time was in Bavaria, whose armed
forced were quite separate from the Prussian Army.
They all were part of the army of the German Empire!

So why would he have gone there?
Since September 1911 he was no longer in the army, but lived
with his parents at Offenbacher Strasse 14 until November
1912. Perhaps he went to Landau - as he later to Wiesbaden -
to further his education in his profession?

I cannot read the characters after ‘Landau’ or after
‘Wiesbaden’. Any suggestions?
In the column in question is written with whom Friedrich
Julius Grünebaum lived. The abbreviation may be "o/P" - the
o superscripted, like Bürgel a/M = am Main = and thus
possibly mean "ohne Personenangabe" (without personal
information) - it's unknown who was the landlord in
Wiesbaden and Landau.

The final ‘linked’ dates on the card are 21 November 1916
(midway through WW1) and 1 August 1914 (the day the Kaiser
ordered full mobilisation). So these are almost two years
apart and appear to be linked with a return from Wiesbaden.
Perhaps he was wounded in 1916 and returned home, but that
doesn’t explain the 1914 entry. Any ideas about this?
He was heavy wounded - see:
<https://des.genealogy.net/search/show/623717> or download
<files.genealogy.net/verlustlisten/02312.jpeg> at one of the
battles at Etrepy and Ville-sur-Tourbe (6.-14.),
Bermericourt (16.-18.), Margny (26.29.), Ognolles and
Champieun (29.09 and 01.10) or Roye and St. Mard (01.-06.,
10., 14.10.1914)

At this time he belong to the "Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 80,
Wiesbaden, Bad Homburg vor der Höhe, I. Bataillon, 2. Kompagnie.

Regards
Ernst-Peter (Winter)


r.peeters
 

The change of addresses has to do with the change of the place of residence between the address of the parents and the plcae moved to. The first time the parents lived at  Offenburgerstrasse 22, Eltern then Gruenbaum moved to Darmstadt,
back to rhe parents, then to Landau, back to the parents, then to Wiesbaden and the last time the mother may have died when he mved back to the house of his father. There is a law in Germany that requires upon moving away to inform townhall of the place you  move to.
Ron Peeters (NL)


r.peeters
 

Additional to my earlier message of today:
Though I see quite a lot of information form other list members the following might be of interest as well:

Actions of  the regiment during the period mentioned,
1914
Battle of Neufchâteau, battles at Moissin and Anloy, battles on the Meuse and Marne, battles at Sermaize, Maurupt-et-le-Montoy, near Reims, near Roye, Gruny Fresnoy, Goyenmurt, Gorullers.
1915
Fighting in Neuve-Chapelle, Roue, Beuvraignes.
1916
Battle of Verdun - Fighting in the forest of Caures, at Beaumont, on the Pepper Ridge, in the forest of Chauffour, the forest of Caillette, the forest of Albain and at Fort Douaumont .
Fight on the Aisne,
Battle of the Somme,
Battle between Meuse and Moselle.
Ron Peeters(NL)


sohail.husain@...
 

Hi Ines

Thank you so much for replying. Your help is much appreciated.

It had crossed my mind that the two dates could be for the reason you have suggested, and the fact that both that you and Ernst-Peter independently had a similar idea adds more weight to that possible explanation.

Landau (Hessen) rather than Landau (Bayern) also seems very plausible. However, I cannot find any record of a barracks (Kaserne) there at the beginning of the 20th Century. So perhaps he went there for a different reason, as suggested by Ernst-Peter. He was a butcher (Metzger) so not sure that he would have gone there for education/ professional development, but maybe for work?

With regard to the '1.8.1914' entry on the card, the dark line does seem significant and it is also a significant date. I wonder if it indicates that his father lived at that address on his own after mobilisation. But curiously that date is 'out of sequence' and is written in the upper part of the space available, as if it was anticipated that another date would be written below.

Thank you again for your thoughts
Sohail Husain


sohail.husain@...
 

Hi Ernst-Peter

Thank you for such a detailed and helpful response. As I have writtten to Ines, I also had wondered if the two dates mught be the date of the entry and the date on which the event occured. Three of us have had the same idea, so I am beginning to feel that this is the answer.

Your suggestion that he went to WIesbaden and Landau for education is certainly a possibility. But he was a butcher (as was his father and grandfather) and the family was poor. So education seems less likely. I wonder if he might have gone to one or both those places for work. But, as far as Wiesbaden is concerned, his stay there begins in October 1913 and continues until November 1916, mid-way through the war. Maybe he signed on for extra military service and was then attached to Fusilier Reiment 80, which was based in Wiesbaden. But then the card entry would not be 'o/P'. I find that all difficult to explain!

Fantastic that you have a possible deciphering of 'o/P'! I have struggled with this for many months and your suggestion would fit well. I will investigate further when I am next in Offenbach and try to see if it can be confirmed by looking on other cards.

I was aware from the Verlustlisten that Friedrich was wounded in October 1914. I also have information from the Lazarettbuch in the Bundesarchiv that he was discharged five weeks later, declared fit for duty and was sent to a replacement battallion as a Reservist ('Abgang am: 11.11.1914 nach: dienstfähig zum Ersatz-Bataillon'). The next information i have comes from 11 letters that he wrote between April 1915 and January 1916. By then he was then in Infanterie Regiment 87, 6 Kompanie and serving in France. But after January 1916 I have nothing, except that the Meldekartei shows his return from Wiesbaden in November 1916. He may have been wounded again, but his name does not appear again in the Verlustlisten, So what happened to him then is still a big unknown.

Thank you once more for your great suggestions. I am very grateful and would welcome any further ideas you may have.

Regards
Sohail Husain


Ernst-Peter Winter
 

Hi Sohail,

Landau (Hessen) rather than Landau (Bayern) also seems very
plausible.
Sorry, but I do not confirm with this.

At 1912/1913 Landau (Bad Arolsen was not a part of Hessen,
but part of Waldeck-Pyrmont. Also Wiesbaden was part of
Nassau, not of Hessen. Landau (Pfalz) was well known at
Offenbach, whereas Landau (Bad Arolsen) would have an
addition to its name.

To get sure, you may ask the city government about the
"Melderegister".

Ernst-Peter (Winter)



However, I cannot find any record of a barracks
(Kaserne) there at the beginning of the 20th Century. So
perhaps he went there for a different reason, as suggested
by Ernst-Peter. He was a butcher (Metzger) so not sure that
he would have gone there for education/ professional
development, but maybe for work?

With regard to the '1.8.1914' entry on the card, the dark
line does seem significant and it is also a significant
date. I wonder if it indicates that his father lived at that
address on his own after mobilisation. But curiously that
date is 'out of sequence' and is written in the upper part
of the space available, as if it was anticipated that
another date would be written below.

Thank you again for your thoughts
Sohail Husain


Eva Lawrence
 

I looked at this record some time ago, but my reply to the group was for
some reason refused. In my opinion, the periods between two dates ten
days apart simply indicated ten days leave from his army duties during
which he was allowed to go home to his parents. He would have to leave
an address from which he could be recalled. Otherwise he remained with
his regiment until he was finally discharged.
--
Eva Lawrence
St Albans, UK.


Ernst-Peter Winter
 

Hi Sohail.husain

Your suggestion that he went to WIesbaden and Landau for
education is certainly a possibility. But he was a butcher
(as was his father and grandfather) and the family was poor.
So education seems less likely. I wonder if he might have
gone to one or both those places for work.
My thought was that he lived with relatives or friends with
the same profession, but I could not find him in address
books of Landau, nor in Wiesbaden.

I was aware from the /Verlustlisten/ that Friedrich was
wounded in October 1914. I also have information from
the/Lazarettbuch/ in the /Bundesarchiv/ that he was
discharged five weeks later, declared fit for duty and was
sent to a replacement battallion as a Reservist (/'Abgang
am: 11.11.1914 nach: dienstfähig zum Ersatz-Bataillon'/).
The information from the Lazarettbuch in the Bundesarchiv is
certainly more accurate than the information in the
Verlustlisten. The Verlustlisten were sometimes also
corrected, since the reports for them came directly from the
front and contained errors.

best regards
Ernst-Peter Winter