How were Hungary censuses conducted? #hungary


Dan Rottenberg
 

This is a request for insight into how the Hungary censuses of 1848, 1857 and 1869 were conducted. Was the information gathered over days, weeks, months?
The question is relevant to me as I wrestle with a strange discovery. In the 1848 census for Sebeskellemes (aka Kellemes), a village on the outskirts of Eperjes (now Presov), it appears that the same woman is listed in two separate households and two different marital situations. To wit:
— Household #448 lists Sali Tannenbaum as a widow living with her mother and five children, the youngest of whom are named Jakab (born 1840) and Mozes Tannenbaum (1846).
— But Household #431 lists a Sali Klein living in her grandmother's house with her husband Lipot Jolesz. This same Lipot and Sali Jolesz are listed in the 1857 Kellemes census with three children of their own plus two sons of Sali from a prior marriage: Jakab Tannenbaum (born 1840) and Moritz Tannenbaum (1846).
In a village as small as Kellemes, it seems unlikely that there would be two sets of brothers name Jabak and Moses Tanenbaum, both born in 1840 & 1846 to a mother named Sali. So  Sali Tannenbaum and Sali Klein Jolesz must be the same person. But how could she be listed in 2 different houses and marital situations in the 1848 census?
My best guess is that Sali Tanenbaum musty have been the widowed head of her own household when the first census taker came around; and by the time a later census taker came by (perhaps weeks or months later), she had married Lipot Jolesz and moved into her grandmother's house with him. Is there any other explanation? Thanks for any insight you can provide!
Dan Rottenberg
Philadelphia PA
da@...


Marianna Toth
 

Tannenbaum Sali is 31 years old according to this household 448, but Jolesz Sali only 19....I know that ages are not exact in Hungarian censuses but still, this is a large difference

Marianna Toth


Marianna Toth
 

and also, in 1857 census Sali Klein was born in 1829, so it is strange that Jakab Tannenbaum was born in 1840 when Sali was only 11 years old.

Marianna Toth


Dan Rottenberg
 

Yes,  the age discrepancy between these 2 Salis is another complication I must explore further. The 1829 birth date for Sallie Klein Jolesz might be an error, or it might be a faulty transcription meant to read 1819 (as you point out, a woman born in 1829 could not have given birth to a son in 1840). In any case, my original question remains: How was the census information gathered, and over how long a period (days, weeks, months?) was the information collected?


Phil Karlin
 

I.  Census timing.
Generally it took time to complete the census. According to the JewishGen description, 1848 took into 1849. I have an 1869 image of a relative's, signed and dated January 1870 But, were all in a given locale conducted at about the same time? Or did they go back later to fill in gaps? 

There might be more info on the timing in the images of the original sheets. For 1848, some of the index records refer to LDS records online, film numbers 9198xx. Unfortunately the entries in question don't seem to be online. I looked at some entries on 919823, just to get an idea. Each section of entries appeared to have an intro page with a date range - like a month or so - and the signature of the enumerator. Your records are on film 1128. Perhaps the Coordinator of the project would have access to the images. 

II.  In 1857, the names are linked to the images.  Looking at the image for Sali, her birth date might be either 1819 or 1829. 

III.  Finally, my 2 cents on the possible explanation:
I'm inclined to think that Sali Klein/Jules and Sali Tannenbaum are different people, while the Tannenbaum brothers are likely the same in both 1848 & 1857.
  • It does not make sense that they would not being living with their mother, particularly the 15 month old.
  • Comparing all the Sali's there's discrepancy in birthplace as well as date. Sali Jolesz and Sali Klein are listed as 19 years (b. 1829), born in Frics (modern Fricovce.) Sali Tannenbaum is 31 years (b.1817) from Lenarto. 
  • Haja Klein  was 62 years old and born in Lenarto (modern Lenartov). Betti Grinfeld, possible mother of Sali Tanenbaum is also 62, but born in Poland. One could not be mother and the other the grandmother of the same person. 
  • Sali Klein is listed as Haja Klein's granddaughter. Sali Jolesz is the wife of Haja's son-in-law. 
  • Lenarto is about 30 miles away from both Frics and Sebeskellemes, and those 2 are about 15 miles from each other. Place differences in the records are not a matter of different names for the same place. 
  • In 1848, the households were almost consecutive in the census, likely enumerated close in time, maybe even the same day. The enumerator was likely going door-to-door. I'm guessing that the 2 households were counted very close in time to each other. Also, the widow Sali T.'s house comes second. So her marrying in between would not explain it. 
  • We don't know Haja Klein's maiden name and we don't know Sali Tannenbaum's, but they were born in the same town. I might say mother/daughter if the Ashkenazi given name thing didn't apply. Or Haja's friend's daughter. In any case, a bond between the families. 
(More) misfortune finds Sali Tannenbaum. And Rabbi Jules adopts her orphans. 
 
--
Phil Karlin
Hartford, CT USA


Dan Rottenberg
 

Thanks to the feedback above (especially from Phil Karlin), I believe I’ve resolved the original mystery. It had nothing to do with the timing of the census in 1848 or any other year. To my mind, this process epitomizes the best virtues of the JewishGen Discussion Group: informed fellow genealogists putting our heads together online to help each other solve mysteries.

For those who are interested, I’ve concluded that there were two different Sali Kleins in the 1848 Kellemes census after all. The widow Sallie Klein Tannenbaum (born Lenarto 1817) was the aunt of Sali Klein Jolesz (born Frics 1829). Sallie Tannenbaum presumably died prior to the 1857 census, at which time Sali Jolesz adopted her aunt Sallie Tannenbaum’s two youngest sons, born 1840 and 1846. This would explain how a woman born in 1829 could be listed as mother of a son born in 1840— she was his adoptive mother, not his birth mother.

My one remaining mystery in the 1848 census is the presence in Sali Tannebaum’s household of “mother (?) Betti Grinfeld, 62, born Szanok, Poland, widow living with her children.” I surmise that this woman is Sali’s mother-in-law— the mother of Sali’s late husband Joseph Tannenbaum— presumably having remarried to someone named Grinfeld. But that’s merely speculation.  
Dan Rottenberg
Philadelphia PSA
dan@...