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Missing Grave Mt Carmel Cemetery #usa


tsteinberg@...
 

Hello All:
Need to some help or advice. I have the death certificate for my GGGM Leah Brawer( misspelled on death certificate as Braver). It says she is buried in Mt Carmel Cemetery in New York. However, she is not listed on the internment list. I called the cemetery and after spending 20 minutes on the phone with me and searching by date of death and different spellings, they could not find either in their computer system.  Her husband David Brawer is buried there as well as her daughter and son in law(Max and Bella Pfeffer). Any thoughts on how to proceed? I have attached her death certificate if it helps.

Thanks
Todd Steinberg


Hilary Henkin
 

Hi,
I went to findagrave.com, and searched on "bra*er."  There were 30 results.  There is an entry for Leah Feldman Braver, Oct. 1845 to Oct. 29, 1930, at Mt. Carmel:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/76250935/leah-braver

Is this the right person, or are there two Leah Bravers?  It seems to me that the chances of two women born and died the same month/year, same son's name, is worth investigating as more  than mere coincidence.  I'd recommend reseearching the second one, to see if she existed.  The informant might have provided incorrect information, in the flurry of grief.

It is interesting, though, that the entry for Leah Braver at findagrave has no grave location, while the entry for David Braver has exact grave location.  You might email the fellow listed as the Source at findagrave, to see if he has any additional information.  Getting someone to physically go there might be worthwhile.

And as for Braver or Brawer, keep in mind there is a linguistic link between "w" and "v" in our old-world languages.

Hilary Henkin
Los Angeles, Calif.

Researching:
Mogilev - BERLIN;  BELIISKI;  HENKIN - GENKIN;  MESCENIKOV;  POZ - POZE
Ekaterinoslav - KATZ; LAPIDUS;  LAVROTIN - LAVRUTIN - AVRUTIN;  PESACHINSKY; SHIMERNITSKY - SEMERNITSKY;  STEINHART
Roumania:  DONNENFIELD;  DOLLINGER;  RINCOVER - HARINCOVER;  WISENTHAL - VIESENTAUL
Harbin, China:  FELDMAN;  PENZNER;  SREBERK - SCHRIEBER;
Lublin, Poland:  KATZ;  JARMUSZ






Diane Jacobs
 

Todd

I was had the same problem with another NY cemetery.   I had seen his stone in the cemetery, but he was not on their computer database.

I called and asked them to do a card search and they did find him that way.

Hope this helps.
Diane Jacobs



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "tsteinberg via groups.jewishgen.org" <tsteinberg=yahoo.com@...>
Date: 10/11/20 5:19 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@...
Subject: [JewishGen.org] Missing Grave Mt Carmel Cemetery #usa

Hello All:
Need to some help or advice. I have the death certificate for my GGGM Leah Brawer( misspelled on death certificate as Braver). It says she is buried in Mt Carmel Cemetery in New York. However, she is not listed on the internment list. I called the cemetery and after spending 20 minutes on the phone with me and searching by date of death and different spellings, they could not find either in their computer system.  Her husband David Brawer is buried there as well as her daughter and son in law(Max and Bella Pfeffer). Any thoughts on how to proceed? I have attached her death certificate if it helps.

Thanks
Todd Steinberg

Attachments:


--
Diane Jacobs, Somerset, New Jersey


Sally Bruckheimer
 

"It says she is "buried in Mt Carmel Cemetery in New York. However, she is not listed on the internment list. "

I had a similar situation in Buffalo. My 2nd ggrandfather died and was buried in a (much smaller) cemetery, but I couldn't find any stone or listing in the cemetery records.

A friend of mine 'reorganized' the records of the cemetery, and kept him in mind. The cemetery had maybe10 burials where none should be; and maybe 12 empty plots where somebody should have been.

So he could be one of the 'extra' burials or he could have been buried elsewhere.  Death certificates aren't always right about burials which happen afterwards.

So you and I have to search (easy in Buffalo), but he isn't elsewhere with a stone, anyway. But you have the same problem that I have.

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ


A. E. Jordan
 




-----Original Message-----
From: tsteinberg via groups.jewishgen.org

Need to some help or advice. I have the death certificate for my GGGM Leah Brawer( misspelled on death certificate as Braver). It says she is buried in Mt Carmel Cemetery in New York. However, she is not listed on the internment list.


REPLY:


She is there as Leah Brown it looks like.  I looked at the plot he is buried in and then search jyst by 1930 and there are only three burials and one is Leah Brown on the same date as her. 

Check the stone but I am sure it is her.  The computer database was built many years later and errors creep in.  Why the person on the phone did not find it ... well ...

Allan Jordan


Here's the listing from the database
LEAH, BROWN
Section: 1
Block: D
Map: 32
Path:
Lot:
Line: 4
Society: VEREIN CHOROSTKOWER
Grave: 5
Close Window


Dahn Cukier
 

Hello,
 
The death was in 1930, I suggest searching in the vicinity of the
husband's grave. Since you searched by date,
they may not have recorded the burial and there may
not be a gravestone. This in NYC during the beginning of
the depression. If the husband buried her without recording the
burial, there would be no record, and maybe no grave to find.
 
I have in Israel, come across many
problems, maybe something can help, here are the stories.
 
1) Misspelled names "david" in Hebrew is usually spelt
daled, vav daled, but can have a yud. All graves in one
cemetery were recorded in the database with the yud.
 
2) An Israeli astronaut had the wrong age-at-death in the database.
 
Both 1 and 2 were reported to yad Lebanim and were corrected.
 
3) A grave that had Mendel and family name in the data base
but Menachem Mendel familyname on the stone. This was reported
by email and took 3 emails to correct.
 
4) I know, and check  from time to time, there is a grave
recorded in the correct plot but wrong cemetery with
the wrong name.
 
I took photos of over 1000 Dept of Defense graves in Israel,
and over 30% had/have mistakes. Many small of one yud
and not 2, but some have the wrong parent name, or age-at-death,
or the given and family names are reversed. (David Yacov and
not Yacov David).
 
Non-DOD.
 
Before 1960 or so, Israeli cemeteries did not always record burials,
and then did not always record non Jewish (by halacha) in Jewish
cemeteries. I have searched both old Yavneh and old
Gan Yavneh cemeteries
and found graves of people unlisted - on the other hand
both are quite small.
 
There are many mistakes on all computer records of burials before
1985 when the first small computer became popular. I found a number
in Nachalat Yizhak at Tel Aviv, and one record recorded date of
death has 1936 and not the correct 1934.
 
Dahn Cukier.
 
When you start to read readin,
how do you know the fellow that
wrote the readin,
wrote the readin right?

Festus Hagen
Long Branch Saloon
Dodge City, Kansas
(Gunsmoke)
 
 

On Monday, October 12, 2020, 12:27:21 AM GMT+3, tsteinberg via groups.jewishgen.org <tsteinberg=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
 
 
Hello All:
Need to some help or advice. I have the death certificate for my GGGM Leah Brawer( misspelled on death certificate as Braver). It says she is buried in Mt Carmel Cemetery in New York. However, she is not listed on the internment list. I called the cemetery and after spending 20 minutes on the phone with me and searching by date of death and different spellings, they could not find either in their computer system.  Her husband David Brawer is buried there as well as her daughter and son in law(Max and Bella Pfeffer). Any thoughts on how to proceed? I have attached her death certificate if it helps.

Thanks
Todd Steinberg

Attachments:


avivahpinski@verizon.net
 

One possible answer to the problem:
I had a similar problem when I found a grave  listed for a friend's family member who had died as a child. It is a small cemetery in Pennsylvania which has not been used since about 1945 and is under restoration - Har Hasetim in Gladwyne Pennsylvania.   The deceased was listed on the original cemetery list but the stone could not be found.  My friend then remembered that the body had probably been exhumed and moved to another cemetery in a nearby town which the family used later. 

Avivah R. Z. Pinski
near Philadelphia, USA
Researching: Zuchman in Sarnaki, Karczew, and Warsaw Poland
Rubinsztejn in Sarnaki, Poland
Reznik in Drohiczyn, Siemiatische, Poland

--
Avivah R. Z. Pinski ,  near Philadelphia, USA


clucenti@...
 

I used a similar search method as Allan Jordan and also came up with Leah Brown, died Oct 29, 1930. Like Allan, I am reasonably confident that this is probably the burial you are searching for. These types of errors are quite common. The database was prepared using handwritten records, and in the case of some of the burial societies, the plots were purchased directly through the society, and the names were provided to the cemetery by the society. Trying to get the cemetery to correct information in their database can be a challenge. However, once you check the headstone and confirm it is her, provide the cemetery with a photograph of the headstone along with her death certificate, and you should be able to get them to correct their database. From past experience, I have found that cemeteries will generally not correct the spelling without official documentation such as a death certificate.

Regards,
Cary Pollack


Robert Hanna
 

I trust that Allan Jordan is correct.  I've never known him to be wrong.  I'll bet that the gravestone, if there is one, is correct.  I looked at the death certificate and I can understand how somebody, in a hurry, transliterated the name Braver incorrectly to Brown.  I won't be at that cemetery this year.  Otherwise I would photograph the gravestone for you.  However, you can call the cemetery and ask them if they will photograph it for you.  Many cemeteries will do that free of charge.

Good luck,
Robert Hanna


Steve Stein
 

She is there as Brown Leah, not Leah Brown. Use Leah as the surname. Same society as her husband.

Steve Stein


Peter Cohen
 

Looks like people have sorted this one out.  Here are some general thoughts about this type of problem:

When the person in the cemetery office doesn't find the person you are looking for, they will next go to their index card files, which is what they used before computers. Some cemeteries have thrown these away. Some still have them.
The really diligent ones will pull out the grave map of the section where you think the person is buried (if you know it) and pore over the map to see if they can find the person.  (If the Mount Carmel person spent 20 minutes, they probably did this.)  You may have to specifically ask them to pull out the map and look.

Most of the burial societies in New York cemeteries buried people sequentially. So the person on either side of a particular grave is the last and the next person to die, unless the family chose to buy two plots together when the first to die was buried. Some societies bury men on one side and women on the other.

All this is to say that looking at who is buried nearby may not be helpful if the spouse you are looking for died a good number of years before or after.

Kudos to A.E. Jordan for using the cemetery's online database to sort this out.  Luckily, Mount Carmel's locator page is one that allows you to enter the society name. Otherwise you would have to scour all entries for the year of death.
All of the cemetery websites for New York City Jewish cemeteries seem to use the same back-end software. So, be aware that those pages that allow you to enter a society name in the search data have a flaw which will not allow you to enter two words. In our example, where our person is buried in a society called VEREIN CHOROSTKOWER, if you enter VEREIN CHOROSTKOWER as the society, the website software removes the space, makes it vereinchorostkower, and comes back with no results.  If you enter just VEREIN, you will get results for all societies that include VEREIN in the name (this will bring up Leah, Brown and others).  If you enter just CHOROSTKOWER, you will get results that apply only to VEREIN CHOROSTKOWER. Entering year: 1930 and Society: CHOROSTKOWER (and nothing else) brings up only 4 results, including LEAH, BROWN.

Peter Cohen
California


tsteinberg@...
 

Thank you all for figuring this out. It was a good lesson in researching cemeteries. Particular thanks to A. E. Jordan and P Cohen. I will follow-up shortly with the cemetery and and see if they will take a pic. I live in the Southwest and won't be there anytime soon.

Todd Steinberg
Las Vegas


tsteinberg@...
 

Hello all who helped with this thread. I finally heard back from the cemetery and your research was correct. Thanks again

"Our grounds personnel inspected the gravesite that you referred to and find that the name on the single headstone monument is spelled Leah Brawer.  We have now changed our records to reflect the correct name.
 
Please allow 24 hours for this change to be reflected on our website.
 
We thank you for bringing this to our attention."

Todd Steinberg
Las Vegas