Natan Noteh equivalent to one name? #names


Wayne Frankel
 

Dear given name mavens:

My ggg grandfather's given name is known to my family as Natan Noteh.  I don't know his wife's or his father's given name.  I am trying to connect him to a different family with almost identical surname from a different metrical record from a different district in present-day Lithuania (it is known that his daughter - my ancestor - moved from one to the other).  Those other records list the would-be identical person as Notke Eliash (and his father's name was given as Moszek).

I know that "Notke" is a diminutive - but was it used for Natan or for Noteh or for both?   How likely is it that "Notke" was used merely as short for "Natan Noteh" and that this could have been followed by another given middle name (Eliash) prior to the family name?   I'd really like to solidify the connection between as the 'other' family's tree extends a bit wider and further back than mine.  This came about because I and a living descendant from this other family have a significant DNA match, actually higher than expected, but it is hard to be precise 5 generations back (and for other reasons; DNA matches among Ashkenazi 3rd cousins or higher are often bloated because of hidden ancestry due to many generations of cousin-cousin and repeated inter-family marriages).

Thanks for any specific insight into the Natan Noteh name usage.

Wayne Frankel
Katonah, NY


Vivian Kahn
 

My third-great grandfather is identified as Natan Nata ha Zegal (Natan Nata the Levite) on the matzeva of his son Avigdor Avraham Neumann in Sobrance, Slovakia. Natan Nata was  probably born in Ung or Zemplen, Hungary, in the late 18th century but I haven't been able to find a birth record for Viktor or any other records for Natan Nata that indicate his secular name.
--
Vivian Kahn, Santa Rosa, California
Researching families including:
KOHN/Zbegnyo/ Zbehnov, Tarnoka/Trnavka, Slovakia; Cleveland  LEFKOVITS/Kolbasa/Brezina, Slovakia
MOSKOVITS/Honkocz, Szobranc, Osztro, Kassa, Hungary/Chonkovce, Sobrance, Ostrov, Kosice, Slov., Nyiregyhaza, Hungary
ELOVITS/Hornya, Hungary/Horna, Slovakia
NEUMANN/Szeretva, Kereszt, Nagymihaly, Miskolc, Hung./Sobrance, Kristy, Stretavka, Michalovce, Slov. 
POLACSEK/Hunfalu, Hungary/Huncovce, Slovakia
SPITZ/Nikolsburg/Mikulov, Prosnitz/Prostejov, Moravia/Czech Republic; Kismarton/Eisenstadt, Hungary/Austria; Hunfalu,Hungary//Huncovce, Slovakia


binyaminkerman@...
 

Natan is Hebrew and Noteh is a Yiddish name that is often used as an equivalent, either together with Natan or in place of it. Notke could therefore be a diminutive for someone named Natan or Noteh or both names together. An additional middle name following that is definitely possible.
I think in your case finding something else that confirms Eliash would be the biggest help. Eliash is much less common than other similar names like Elisha or Elya (a variant of Eliyahu/Elijah). If you can find other mentions of any of these names in your family it might get you closer to figuring out if your Natan Noteh is the same person.
Good luck!
Binyamin Kerman
Baltimore MD


Matthew Klionsky
 

My family also has a person with this set of names - and more.  We've seen references to Natan, Nota, Note, Noteh,...and also Nissan.  All with wife Mina, so we think it must all be one person.  But, I've also researched that Nissan and Natan are NOT likely the same name.  I'd welcome informed opinion about this. 

Matthew Klionsky
Chicago


Adam Turner
 

If "Nissan" is not equivalent to "Natan", it's news to me. As I understand it, "Nissan", "Nussen," etc. are just various Ashkenazi pronounciations of Natan (נתן). Typical standard Hebrew pronunciation is generally based on Sephardic pronunciation: the letter ת is generally pronounced as "t": "shabbat". But Eastern Europeans generally pronounce the same letter, ת, as "s": "shabbos".  So the standard Hebrew Natan is the same name as the Ashkenazi Nussen; "Nissan" is also the same, just with the vowels shifted because different Yiddish dialects pronounce vowels differently. (I think "Nissan" is more of a southeastern Yiddish pronunciation while "Nussen" is closer to Litvish, but perhaps someone more familiar with the various dialect differences can clarify this.)

For the same reason, the Hebrew name Yehudit (יְהוּדִית) also has the variations Yehudis, Hodes, Hudes, etc.

Adam Turner


billie.stein@...
 

Nissan, Nissim and Natan are 3 different names.
Nissan ניסן is usually someone who was born during that month (or named for someone who was born in Nissan).
Natan נתן - in English transliterated as Nathan - pronounced in Ashkenazic pronunciation as Nossen or Noosen.
Nissim ניסים or נסים which translates as miracles.
There are no rules, but Nissan is more likely to be of Ashkenazic descent, and Nissim - Sephardic.

Billie Stein
Givatayim, Israel


binyaminkerman@...
 

There is an entirely separate name Nissan (ניסן) which is not as common (it might be slightly more common in certain Chassidik or Sephardic circles). But, like Adam said, depending on the accent the name Natan (נתן) could possibly end up sounding similar, I just don't know of the area that would pronounce it that way.
Binyamin Kerman
Baltimore MD


binyaminkerman@...
 

Just to clarify the name Nissan (ניסן) is pronounced like the car company "Nee-sahn" whether Ashkenazi or Sephardi, while the closest pronunciation of Natan (נתן) I can imagine might be "Ni-sin" where the sound is like the beginning of the word nickel.
Binyamin Kerman
Baltimore MD


Alan Cohen
 

My grandfather was born in month of Nissan and named Chaim Nissan. He had a younger brother named Nathan (Natan). So no equivalence there.
 
Alan Cohen


Howard Nightingale
 

Natan and Noteh are separate names
My great uncle was known as Natan Noteh and that was on his passport as well

Howard Nightingale
Toronto 


mvayser@...
 

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 02:22 PM, Howard Nightingale wrote:
Natan and Noteh are separate names
According to Alexander Beider's reference of Yiddish names, it is the same name, from Nosn.
Here is the full list of Yiddish names associated with Nosn:
Nasan, Nason, Natan, Natsko, Neytel, Nosan, Nosel, Nosen, Noson, Nota, Note, Notel, Notka, Notko, Nusen, Nusin, Nuson, Nus, Nusya, Nuta

Mike Vayser