Possible marriage in London #unitedkingdom #records


yvonne baines
 

Good morning friends,
I am searching for a marriage record in London.  My ggrandfather Joseph Cohen, Hebrew name is 'Yisrael ben Ze'ev' was born in Lomza Poland in 1846.  My ggrandmother Mary Barnett, Hebrew name 'Miriam bat Moshe Mordechai' was born 1841/42 in Kutno, Poland.    The first record I have of them is the 1881 census living in Liverpool.  However there is a 1871 census that has Mary Barnett, listed as wife and married.  Their Oldest 2 children Eliza, born 1867 in London, and Morris born 1869 in Liverpool.  Joseph is not listed on the 1871 census.  I am not positive that this census belongs to them, it is the accuracy of the children and Mary's name that keep's me considering this.  The 1881 census has Eliza born in Liverpool.  The 1911 census has Joseph and Mary married 45 years, which gives the year as 1866, which goes with their first child Eliza being born 1867.  We have looked in Liverpool for a marriage record with no success.  I have looked for birth records for both Eliza & Morris B 1869 (his headstone confirms his birth year)  I have not been successful.
I have been thinking that the distance between Lomza and Kutno is about 300kms.   In 1860 that would have been a long journey.  I think that Israel (Joseph) and Miriam (Mary) met either while emigrating,  or in England?   My brother thinks that they started out in London.  
Would Whitechapel be the place to start looking?
Which Synagogue would they have attended or been married at?
 
I have been told that the United synagogue marriage authorizations are searchable online, but these are only from 1880 - 1922.
I live in Southern Alberta, Canada.  I do have a cousin who is based in Leeds. she may be able to search for these records, with some direction from such kind friends.  
 
Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  
with kind regards,
Yvonne Tamtom


Tina Isaacs
 

You can research family records online at https://www.gov.uk/research-family-history, but you may already know this.  You also may need more information before asking the records office to search (they do this for a small fee, half of which they refund if they can't find your records.

United Synagogue is your best bet; Bevis Marks has excellent records, but it was (and is) a Sephardi synagogue.
--
Tina Isaacs
London, England


Martyn Woolf
 

I have looked at both the Great Synagogue, the New and the Hambro Synagogue records and there is no record that I can see for a Mary (Miriam) Barnett and Joseph Cohen during the suggested period.

The doubt that I have is whether a Jewish man with the name Joseph would have Israel as his Hebrew name.  Yosef would be more likely.  There is no wedding for a Yosef to a Miriam (Mary) either.

Keep looking.

Martyn Woolf

 

 


ireneplotzker@...
 

My great-grandparents married in Liverpool in 1864. I have attached the record, which a cousin got many years ago, in case it could give you any clues. I can't quite make out the name of the synagogue - maybe Sal St?
Good luck!
Irene Plotzker
Wilmington, DE


Susan&David
 

According to this website the Old Hebrew Congregation Synagogue on Princes' Road was also known earlier, as the Seel St. Congregation
https://www.jewsfww.uk/liverpool-old-hebrew-congregation-3148.php

David Rosen
Boston MA,  USA

On 6/2/2021 10:26 AM, ireneplotzker@... wrote:
My great-grandparents married in Liverpool in 1864. I have attached the record, which a cousin got many years ago, in case it could give you any clues. I can't quite make out the name of the synagogue - maybe Sal St?
Good luck!
Irene Plotzker
Wilmington, DE


jlevy2008@...
 

Hello Yvonne,

1866 was in the middle of the term of office of Chief Rabbi Nathan Marcus Adler, who was very strict when it came to authorising marriages in orthodox synagogues. The archivist at the United Synagogue Beth Din in London explained the situation thus:

 

"To marry in a Orthodox Synagogue one needs the Chief Rabbi's permission (authorisation). To get that one must prove one is Jewish. One proves one is Jewish by presenting one's own parents' ketubah (marriage contract). This proves one is a result of a Jewish union. But therein lay the problem. If one had fled one's home country one might not have access to one's parents' ketubah. So, the Chief Rabbi would decline his authorisation. He was VERY strict about it, there was no arguing or having people vouch for you; without that ketubah you could forget it! So, without his authorisation no approved minister would perform a Jewish marriage. Some couples went to the registrar or even a parish church, but some thought that being married by any Rabbi (authorised or not) was what should happen. So, a clandestine marriage (stille chuppah) was performed. An unauthorised (though probably perfectly bona fide) Rabbi would perform the ceremony. In the eyes of God the couple were legally married, but in the eyes of the law, they were not. No records of these marriages were ever made. Years later the couple would sometimes have a second marriage for the sake of their children, either at the registry office or in a church. Others probably never bothered."

Only an approved minister would have been permitted to issue an official marriage certificate. He would have sent copies to the Superintendent Registrar and the General Register Office for official registration.

One further point; not until 1875 was the penalty for not registering the birth of a child.

I hope this helps ... albeit in a disappointing way.

Regards,

Justin Levy




jlevy2008@...
 

Hello again,

I have done a bit more digging and established that both Eliza and Morris were granted authorisations to marry in Liverpool synagogues in 1890 (Old Synagogue) and 1892 (Princes Road Synagogue) respectively, which suggests that their parents were in possession of their own ketubah. Maybe the simple explanation is that Joseph and Mary had married in Poland before emigrating.

There are a couple of family trees on ancestry reporting (without any evidence) that both Joseph and Mary came from Lomza. I really can't make out Mary's birthplace as it was recorded in 1871 census. It appears to begin with a "W". Do you have other records that show their places of birth?

Regards,

Justin Levy


Richard Gilbert
 

Hi,

With regards to evidence of one’s Halachic Jewish status, one would in normal circumstances produce one’s parents’ Ketubah, but this was as the previous replies suggest not always available.

It was for this reason that the Marriage Authorisation has a space for certificate. This was these pace where the Chief Rabbi’s Office recorded what information or documentation it took as evidence of someone’s Jewish status. On occasions this was based on oral evidence from other members of the family.

Kind regards,

Richard Gilbert


avivahpinski@verizon.net
 

The "L" in Lomza has a slash through it. In Polish, the "L" with the slash It is pronounced like a "W"
--
Avivah R. Z. Pinski ,  near Philadelphia, USA