Proving that a man who died in Paris did not have children #france #general


Lea Haber Gedalia
 

Dear friends , 
I urge your help with an uncommon question - The Israeli court have asked me to prove that a man who died in Paris did not have any children born to him while residing there.  This person , Mr. Simon Shalit (born 1926 in Tel Aviv to Joseph and Dvora ) resided in 139 Avenue de Malakoff Paris 16eme and died 25.11.1991 . 
Is this even possible to prove  such a request ? Maybe a gravestone can indicate who brought him to his final rest, but I do not have a burial site...
Any suggestions and insights would be greatly appreciated.
Lea Haber Gedalia, Israel


Alain SIELIONTCHIK
 

Dear Lea,

The best for you is to contact the City Hall of Paris, They must have the information and can deliver an official document.

Best regards,

Alain Sieliontchik, Belgium.


rroth@...
 

Anyone who has taken a Philosophy course will tell you it is impossible to prove a negative. But then logic has never stopped lawyers before. What is the Israeli court's standard for "due diligence" in attempting this "proof"?  I like Alain's suggestion of contacting City Hall of Paris since if that comes up blank one could argue that none were found.
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Robert Roth
Kingston, NY
rroth@...


jbonline1111@...
 

I believe that all you can prove is that no children were found, possibly through Paris records and maybe census data.
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Barbara Sloan
Conway, SC


Stephen Weinstein
 

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 02:16 AM, Lea Haber Gedalia wrote:
prove that a man who died in Paris did not have any children born to him

 The only two ways to "prove" a man did not have children would be either
a) DNA test every child born during the time he lived there and for the next 9 months thereafter.  To be absolutely certain, this requires exhuming the bodies of children born in the time in question who have since died.  (DNA tests on their descendants are not absolute proof, because it's possible that the "descendants" aren't really theirs and their DNA is needed to confirm those relationships.)
b) Establish through medical records or medical tests that he could not have had children due to not having a body part needed or similar reasons.

Realistically, the most you can do is to check records and show that there are no surviving birth or baptism records that list him as the father.  This may satisfy the court.  However, it would still be possible that he fathered a child that was recorded as being someone else's child or as a child whose father was unknown or that he fathered a child that doesn't show up in any records because the records were destroyed, because it was born while the mother was in a country that didn't keep records of births, etc.

--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


michele.akerberg@...
 

Bonjour Léa,
En France il est possible de demander une fiche familiale d'état civil à la Mairie du 16e à Paris (service Etat Civil) qui mentionne toutes les informations concernant la personne.
Voici le lien ,
https://mairie16.paris.fr/pages/contact-7633

Cordialement
Michele Akerberg


Martyn Woolf
 

It is not possible to prove that he was childless. My late wife had an uncle who was married and never had children. Long after he died I had a message asking me if I could suggest how to find a man who had been a musician and appeared on the stage. To cut short a long story I was able to prove that the lady in New Zealand who had been looking for her father for very many years, had finally traced him. The gentleman had fathered a child as the result of a fling with a hotel waitress whilst in Bournemouth one summer.

Regards

 

Martyn Woolf

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Bernard Flam
 

Hi from Paris,
Dear Lea,
The first and most important point is set by Robert Roth, such a certification is impossible to established by principe.

Nevertheless, what do we have according to French records ?
You must be aware that privacy is protected at a level understandable by US citizens.
Every data is protected, even vital records less than 70 years old...

Another point is the possibility to have a child without being married,  letting the child with the maiden name of the mother...

If we think about an "official" couple, where could a child be recorded in France :
  • in the naturalization file of the parents if they have been naturalized later than the child's birth : this situation has been very common for Polish Jews emigrating in the 20's or 30's, surviving Shoah in France and naturalized in 45's - 55's period. 
  • in the wedding act of the parents if the child was born previously. A family booklet is given on this day where further children have a place to be registered. I attach a page with the "place" for registering children.
  • concerning child's birth, it's registered in the city of birth which could be any place, Paris or suburbs. This birth isn't registered on parents vital records, only on the family booklet.  The "fiche familiale d'état civil", as said on previous post by my friend Michele Ackerberg, is filed according to this family booklet : the city hall administration can't fill today any document without this booklet. 
  • census of 1946 is available at Paris' city archives but not on line : someone must go there. Later census aren't available due to privacy rules.
  • Searching the cemetery where Simon is buried and asking administration of this cemetery could be a clue to any family relation.
  • In fact, there is only one French administration which have all our personal and family (including wife and declared children) history : this is our "Securite sociale", our "Medicare" which cover all our medical costs at a so high level you can't even dream about. But of course, nobody can access its records...
  • five "Shalit" appear on French white pages : https://annuaire.118712.fr/?s=shalit 
That all folks !
Khavershaft
Bernard Flam
Archives & history of Medem Center - Arbeter Ring of France ( Bund / Skif / Workmen Circle)