Revision list question #lithuania #records


dmjaffey@...
 

Could someone answer a question for me regarding the 1858 Revision list for Russia/Lithuania?  On the Litvak SIG website it says the following:

“Up until and including 1858, the census was called a Revision List; after 1858 it was called a Family List. Before 1858, a particular family may have physically lived in one place despite the fact that they were officially registered and counted for census purposes on a Revision List in another place.”

I’m unclear from this whether in the 1858 revision lists people were listed where they lived or where they were registered.

I’ve found a record for a rabbi ancestor in Zemaiciu Naumiestis in the 1858 Revision List and also in the Box Taxpayer list for 1859. He is described as poor in the Box Taxpayer list, so it seems to me unlikely that he could have changed his registration (I understand that was expensive, but please correct me if I’m wrong).  Can I conclude from his appearance in the 1858 list that his family was registered in and originally from Zemaiciu Naumiestis? Or is he simply living there and his family came from and would be registered elsewhere?

Thanks for your advice.

--
Deborah Jaffey, La Mesa, CA


David Ellis
 

In general, Jews in the Russian empire didn't necessarily reside where they were registered.  People moved around a lot, which can be a source of confusion.

I think (but I'm not sure) that revision lists showed people where they actually lived, while vital records showed people where they were registered.

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David Ellis
Natick, MA
djemkitso@...


Odeda Zlotnick
 

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 03:31 AM, David Ellis wrote:
I think (but I'm not sure) that revision lists showed people where they actually lived,
This seems to be true of the US census as well.
I once found a 10 year old child listed in the 1930 census with his grandparents. Two weeks later he was listed at another address with his parents and brother. I checked the Hebrew date for the day he stayed with his grandparents: it was during Passover.
I imagine the families had the Seders together, and the boy stayed with grandma and grandpa and his aunts...
 
--
Odeda Zlotnick
Jerusalem, Israel.


Diane Jacobs
 

Just as people have been missed in the census
I have seen people there twice listed in different households.

Diane Jacobs


On Oct 2, 2022, at 12:42 PM, Odeda Zlotnick <odedapri@...> wrote:

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 03:31 AM, David Ellis wrote:
I think (but I'm not sure) that revision lists showed people where they actually lived,
This seems to be true of the US census as well.
I once found a 10 year old child listed in the 1930 census with his grandparents. Two weeks later he was listed at another address with his parents and brother. I checked the Hebrew date for the day he stayed with his grandparents: it was during Passover.
I imagine the families had the Seders together, and the boy stayed with grandma and grandpa and his aunts...
 
--
Odeda Zlotnick
Jerusalem, Israel.

--
Diane Jacobs, Somerset, New Jersey


Steven Granek
 

For what it's worth...  the 1908 revision list for Rokiskis shows an entire family that is clearly my Grandmother's (she is listed). It includes all of her siblings - and a few that are listed as siblings but were unknown to me or to my father.  It includes her sister Freyda, whom I know was by 1908 married and in Pabianice (I have original documentation) as well as a passport given to two of the listed siblings to travel to Lodz right at the time that Freyda was married - 1899 - in Lodz - again, this is not family hearsay - I have all the original documentation). So - Freyda did not live there and had not for some time.  Yet she is listed.  Also, while I can't document this as to the exact time - it is HIGHLY likely that my grandmother was already in Pabianice with her older sister by 1908, since she met my grandfather in Pabianice, married him and was in the US by mid 1909 (not impossible, but...). Further, her younger brother is also listed, but had arrived in NY the year before the date of the revision list.  So - it seems they were intent on capturing anyone who ever lived there - just in case???  Agreed - it's confusing. 

Steve Granek, Columbia, MD, USA


Arlene Beare
 

Families were registered in a particular place and this remained the place of origin of the family irrespective of where they were born. The Latvian Archives have Revision Lists (Reviskaya Schazka) from 1799 to 1858 and some additional lists up to 1913. The last important Revision was 1858-the 10th Revision. It recorded how many individuals were in the family at the time of the preceding revision and how many had left.The early Revision lists may not have surnames and were compiled in German and in rare cases in Russian. Russian became the offical state language in Latvia in 1892 and the All Russian Census is in Russian except for some Towns in Courland which are in German. The purpose of the Revision Lists was to register the individuals in specific locations for Taxation and Military service.Names and ages of all males were entered on one page with name and ages of females opposite.
Family Lists listed the whole family together with the men on the left and the women on the right. The were mainly for statistical calculations.
Inhabitants Lists give information on families that may legally belong to another place.
I know the question is about Lithuania but the rules were generally the same. Perhaps the Lithuanian RD could answer the question for Lithuania.
Arlene Beare
Co-Director Latvia and Estonia Research Division


dmjaffey@...
 

Hi everyone

Thanks for the suggested answers.  Perhaps I can restate my question to clarify why I’m asking. 

 

As I mentioned, I found a record that I believe corresponds to my ancestor in Zemaiciu Naumiestis in the 1858 Revision List and also in the Box Taxpayer list for 1859.  Mu understanding is that initially people were listed in the census where they were registered but later they were listed where they lived.  But the comments on the Litvak SIG website about the 1858 census are unclear.  In that particular census were people listed where they lived or where they were registered?  The reason I care is because I’m looking for records of his father and grandfather.  If my ancestor in the 1858 census was listed where he was registered then I can assume his family would have been registered there too, unless he had changed his registration which I think was uncommon.  If my ancestor was listed where he lived, then his father/grandfather could have lived anywhere.

 

If anyone can clarify with regard to the 1858 census specifically, I'd really appreciate it!

--
Deborah Jaffey, La Mesa, CA


Arlene Beare
 

Hi Deborah

I asked the Latvian Archivists and they said it was the Place of Origin on the 1858 Revision List.
Hope this helps.
Arlene Beare
Co-Director Latvia and Estonia Research Division