We believe we are related, but DNA doesn't show connection... ??? KLEPFISZ #poland #dna #warsaw


Elizabeth Jackson
 

Hello everyone,

My "cousin" and I have both had our DNA tested and have it on MyHeritage.  Though we have not yet found our exact connection, we do believe we are cousins, albeit it may be a distant connection.  We are both descended from KLEPFISZ of Poland.  We were told once by a well known scholar (born in Poland) who was also a Klepfisz that "...it was a small family.  All are related".  In fact, many lived within a very small area of Warsaw.  The Klepfisz connection for each of us is only as far back as our grandparents.

We hoped that having our DNA tested would give us some clue as to our connection.  Sadly, MyHeritage is not showing us as related at all.  I understand that it is possible that if the match is many generation back, we may no longer show any shared DNA.  However, our suspicion is that the connection is not so far back and we are surprised to find no shared DNA.

As you may imagine, we are very eager to try and learn our exact connection.  The lack of DNA connection has been very disappointing.
 
Do any of you  have suggestions or ideas on how we might continue to research this farther?  Any help will be most appreciated!

Elizabeth Jackson
Muskegon Michigan

Researching:  KLEPFISZ, INGBERG


Phil Karlin
 

Once you get to 3rd cousin, there is a possibility of no shared DNA, though small (2.3%). As you get more distant, the odds of no shared DNA increase significantly.
International Society of Genetic Genealogy Wiki




Phil Karlin
Hartford, CT USA


Jill Whitehead
 

You also need to consider false paternity, adoptions, children of 1st and 2nd marriages,  and relationships by marriage but not by blood. I think the general figure is that false paternity could account for 10%, meaning that a child may not be the child of both expected parents.

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK


Angie Elfassi
 

Hi,

Of course, there is the old story that one of your ancestors. or the 'cousin' took/borrowed/stole this surname and therefore there might be no DNA connection.

Regards
Angie Elfassi


Peter Lowe
 

There are 169 Klepfisz entries on Geni.com:
https://www.geni.com/search?search_type=people&names=klepfisz

If you haven't done so already , I suggest  that you and your possible cousin  add what certain information you both have to the collaborative Geni tree.   Maybe this will link up to one or more of the entries already there.  

It is free to join Geni as a basic member  and to add the information that you know about your family trees.    
--
Peter Lowe
Hertford England


Darlene Glenn
 

You might also try to see if you have any common Klepfisz dna matches in common. It may be that you inherited some dna through that possibly common relative and someone else a different portion.

Darlene Glenn
Santa Ana, CA

Researching: Danis/Flom (Detinka from Dombrowitza, Ukraine), Primack (Montchelek, Ukraine), Manekofsky (Drosnic, Ukraine), Abramowitz (Jekabpils, Latvia)


Phil Karlin
 

So having addressed the limits of dna, it's back to genealogy. I did a search on Klepfisz, there are almost 1000 in JRI-Poland. Are you sure you can't go back further on your trees? 

Can you trace your respective families to a particular place or places in Poland? 

When were they there? 

Your first task is to place both families in the same place at the same time. Start (if you haven't already) by searching the Jewishgen Unified Search. 

--
Phil Karlin
Hartford, CT USA


Michele Lock
 

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 02:21 PM, Phil Karlin wrote:
Klepfisz
JRI-Poland has a neat feature called Results Mapper, that shows where surname records are found, and how prevalent they are. For the exact spelling of Klepfisz, there are 617 records in 25 different towns, some near Warsaw, and some towns not quite so near. 



Back to DNA results - Another option is to have you and your possible cousin test with AncestryDNA, since you are both likely to find more matches there, and may be able to tell if you are both from the same Klepfisz branch or unrelated Klepfisz families.

I have two relatively rare Litvak surnames in my family, Kalon and Lak (Lock). For the Lak surname, there appear to be three unrelated clusters of families with the surname, in Telsiai, Zagare, and Vilnius. For Kalon, there appears to be two unrelated clusters of families, in Telsiai and Joniskis. I've had a hard time explaining to some of my relatives that not all Jewish Locks or Jewish Kalons are related.  
--
Michele Lock

Lock/Lak/Lok and Kalon/Kolon in Zagare/Joniskis/Gruzdziai, Lithuania
Trisinsky/Trushinsky/Sturisky and Leybman in Dotnuva, Lithuania
Olitsky in Alytus, Suwalki, Poland/Lithuania
Gutman/Goodman in Czestochowa, Poland
Lavine/Lev/Lew in Trenton, New Jersey and Lida/Vilna gub., Belarus


Stephen Weinstein
 

If they are still alive, DNA test your parents or grandparents.  A closer relationship is more likely to give a positive DNA match.

However, you also need to realize that when all with a surname are "related", it means, at most, only that everyone with the surname has the same mother's husband's mother's husband's mother's husband, etc., if you go back enough generations (even this isn't always true).  It does not mean that they are all biological relatives or share DNA.  It just takes one person in one generation whose mother was impregnated by someone other than her husband.

You can't "research this farther" unless you are willing to research this father.


On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 04:58 AM, Elizabeth Jackson wrote:
it was a small family.  All are related".  ...

research this farther? 

 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


snordlinge@...
 

While the previous answers may help some of the time, one should seek the origin of the name. I Googled the surname Klepfish and learned: 
Klepfish Surname Definition: (from an ancestor's occupation) A Yiddish version of Klippfisch (“stockfish”), cod or haddock, salted or dried. The bearer of this name was a merchant of this commodity. So there's no reason for all Klepfish families to be related. Baker and Cooper families often aren't related. My surname is based on a town name (Noerdlingen in Bavaria), so Nordlingers are people whose ancestors left that town over centuries. They are Jewish, Catholic and Protestant. Some of them are related to each other, but many are not.
Stephanie Nordlinger
Los Angeles California


mandy.molava@...
 

I actually find some of DNA so infuriating, but sometimes you can get very lucky. Are you both on any other DNA site? I've had some success doing that, Ancestry has taken away very small cm matches to one of my family's accounts I found out, but not to mine for some reason? So I've been able to find a couple that are matched with a direct line, the more sites you're on IMHO the more matches you have/wider search. 

I like GEDmatch (free) for a comparison, which I believe is more 'scientific', it goes a bit deeper, shows clearer generations and has tools for searches to use to look at matches also, so I try and encourage as many as possible to go on that one.


Mandy Molava
Researching Brest Russia Galacia and much more.


Moishe Miller
 

You raise a great question: "We believe we are related, but DNA doesn't show connection". I will try to give three non-technical answers:
1. Your genetic (DNA) tree will be different than your "real" (genealogical) tree. You will always get DNA from parents, grandparents and even all 8 great-grandparents. Further back in time, you will likely get DNA from all 16 gg-gp's, but sometimes maybe only from 15 or 14. Each generation further back in time results in less "pieces" (cM's) of DNA being from all ancestors.
2. The DNA segments (cM) you receive will always be large enough so that you will share some DNA with a 2nd cousin. But, you could have a legitimate 3rd cousin that does not match any of your DNA. It could be that the segments you have from the common gg-gp's do not overlap. 
3. When your DNA is created, there is something at the chromosome level known as crossover. The "non-sciencey" meaning is that chromosomes tend to recombine at specific break points. So a given chromosome will only have so many pieces and not more. For instance, if a chromosome only has 15 crossover sections, you will not get a segment from at least one of your 16 gg-gp's. It is sort of like musical chairs. In this example, 16 gg-gp's and only 15 crossovers, leaves at least one off. If two segments come from the same one gg-gp, than you will only have 14 gg-gp's represented in that chromosome. If you want to learn more about crossover, and how it differs by gender, see this blog posts by Roberta Estes: https://dna-explained.com/2017/11/09/concepts-dna-recombination-and-crossovers/ from 2017 and https://dna-explained.com/2019/09/17/crossovers-frequency-and-inheritance-statistics-male-versus-female-matters/ from 2019.

Wishing everyone stays safe and healthy,
--

Moishe Miller
Brooklyn, NY
moishe.miller@...
JGFF #3391


Jill Whitehead
 

You should always beware small chromosome segments as these often give what is called false positives. There is a reason why most companies only give results above 5cm or more commonly 7cm for each segment. You are more likely to find relations the larger the  size of the individual chromosome segment. I tend to look for those above 20cm and over. 

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK


Isabel Cymerman
 

Perhaps you are also connected to the poet Irina KLEPFISZ, of, I think New York.

Isabel Cymerman
Southbury, CT

CUKIERMAN, DRONZNIK, GRYNFARB, SOLECZNIK, TABACZNIK, ZYSKIND


casson123@...
 

Phil,
Thank you for providing this informative chart. I could not find it due to the abundance of information on the Wiki. Can you please provide the exact link. (I have a similar situation with “cousins “ having the same surname.)
Thanks!
--
Liba Casson-Nudell
Minneapolis, MN
casson123@...


Moishe Miller
 

I believe this article, over 3 years old, is still relevant to "your proof you are related":
https://clevertitletk.medium.com/no-you-dont-really-have-7-900-4th-cousins-some-dna-basics-for-those-with-jewish-heritage-857f873399ff
--

Moishe Miller
Brooklyn, NY
moishe.miller@...
JGFF #3391