What would be the correct Bar Mitzvah date in 1961 #general


Jx. Gx.
 

Can someone please tell me what would be the correct bar mitzvah date for a cousin who was born on August 17, 1948 or point me to a website that can calculate the correct date?  I have two likely dates, but I'm not sure which is the correct one: July 22 or July 29, 1961.  Thank you.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona     


Teewinot
 


On 5/8/2021 1:13 AM, Jx. Gx. wrote:
Can someone please tell me what would be the correct bar mitzvah date
for a cousin who was born on August 17, 1948 or point me to a website
that can calculate the correct date?  I have two likely dates, but I'm
not sure which is the correct one: July 22 or July 29, 1961.  Thank you.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona
--
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sharon yampell
 

I have a difference in opinion…my son was born on December 15th and his Bar Mitzvah was not until January… this was what was available AFTER he turned 13…

 

Sharon F. Yampell

Voorhees, New Jersey

MODERATOR NOTE: I had the same issue. I was born December 21 and my Bar Mitzvah was not until January 3 due to the holidays, New Year and available date.

 

From: Jx. Gx.
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:20 AM
To: main@...
Subject: [JewishGen.org] What would be the correct Bar Mitzvah date in 1961 #general

 

Can someone please tell me what would be the correct bar mitzvah date for a cousin who was born on August 17, 1948 or point me to a website that can calculate the correct date?  I have two likely dates, but I'm not sure which is the correct one: July 22 or July 29, 1961.  Thank you.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona     

 

 


Lin Mor
 

I think the best way to find out is to contact the synagogue and ask them to please check their records. The date of the Bar/Bat Mitzvah date is not necessarily the one closest to the secular birthdate. My brother, born May 12, 1950 had his on May 25, 1963. That lovely calculation website provided by Jeri in a previous response did not work for me using dates in the past, I was trying to provide the Hebrew calendar date. I found  https://www.hebcal.com/converter?gd=25&gm=5&gy=1963&g2h=1 worked well and May 12, 1950 is Iyyar 9/25/5710. Yet, May 25, 1963 was Sivan 2, 5223. The point I am trying to make is that Bar/Bat Mitzvahs are not necessarily the closest Sabbath to the person's Hebrew birthdate, other factors such as scheduling or family choice come into play. I remember the discussion in 1963 during the baby boomer years on how difficult it was to keep the number at no more than 2 on any given Sabbath.

Linda Cohen Morzillo
Saratoga Springs NY


David Harrison
 

There could be many reasons why a function is not held on the "correct" day. As noted in another note, there might be a space limit in the Synagogue. In 1964 I was working in Paris and the only time for those 8 months when there were more than 2 young people reading their pieces was when there were twins or triplets in the family.  The place was always packed.  But when we turned to New Year, the resident congregation took over a Concert Hall because their Synagogue could only hold about 10% of the congregation and they allowed an American group from all over Europe to have their services in that building.  Likewise, at present some families have delayed Bar and Bat Mitzvah until after the end of Covid restrictions (not only of allowed numbers in the congregation but also on travel from other countries I would imagine that damage from Volcanos and bombs could also require changes of venue or of day .

David Harrison,
Birmingham, England


From: main@... <main@...> on behalf of Teewinot <teewinot13@...>
Sent: 08 May 2021 06:12
To: main@... <main@...>
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] What would be the correct Bar Mitzvah date in 1961 #general
 
Here's a site:

https://www.chabad.org/calendar/bar-bat-mitzvah_cdo/aid/6227/jewish/BarBat-Mitzvah-Date-Calculator.htm

Jeri Friedman
Port Saint Lucie, Florida

On 5/8/2021 1:13 AM, Jx. Gx. wrote:
Can someone please tell me what would be the correct bar mitzvah date
for a cousin who was born on August 17, 1948 or point me to a website
that can calculate the correct date?  I have two likely dates, but I'm
not sure which is the correct one: July 22 or July 29, 1961.  Thank you.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona
--
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Jx. Gx.
 

Hello Linda,

1961 was a long time ago and the shul has since been converted into a public senior center.  The online calendars are the next best thing.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona 


JoAnne Goldberg
 

I don't think anyone in my family has celebrated on the "correct" date!

A 1961 bar mitzvah, at least in the United States, would probably have
been announced in the local Jewish newspaper.

JoAnne
--
JoAnne Goldberg - Menlo Park, California; GEDmatch M131535
BLOCH, SEGAL, FRIDMAN, KAMINSKY, PLOTNIK/KIN -- LIthuania
GOLDSCHMIDT, HAMMERSCHLAG,HEILBRUNN, REIS(S), EDELMUTH, ROTHSCHILD, SPEI(Y)ER -- Hesse, Germany
COHEN, KAMP, HARFF, FLECK, FRÖHLICH, HAUSMANN,  DANIEL  -- Rhineland, Germany

 


Jx. Gx.
 


I received the Chabad calendar link from Jeri Freidman and https://www.hebcal.com/converter?gd=17&gm=8&gy=1961&g2h=1 from three other people who generously responded to me directly. Fortunately, one person did the calculation for me at hebcal.com and gave me the correct date of July 29,1961 for my cousin's bar mitzvah. I was doing something wrong and kept getting an incorrect date.  The Chabad calendar calculations fell short by a couple of days. The same thing happened when I used it for my own DOB/bar mitzvah. It incorrectly said my bar mitzvah date was Thursday, Jan 21.  But when I moved that weekday to the next shabbat it was correct, Jan. 23.  I did the same thing with my cousin's data.  Chabad calculated his bar mitzvah as Tues, July 25.  Move it up to the next shabbat and there it was the correct date of July 29.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona, USA  


Stephen Weinstein
 

Mine was about 3 months after my birthday because we didn't schedule them for winter due to the risk of snow.


On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 06:28 AM, sharon yampell wrote:

my son was born on December 15th and his Bar Mitzvah was not until January… this was what was available AFTER he turned 13…

 

Sharon F. Yampell

Voorhees, New Jersey

MODERATOR NOTE: I had the same issue. I was born December 21 and my Bar Mitzvah was not until January 3


 
--
Stephen Weinstein
Camarillo, California, USA
stephenweinstein@...


mpipik
 

You didn't say where that cousin lived and how observant that family was.  That's important.
For example, in metro NYC at the time, the date could hinge upon the availability of the synagogue as there might be other boys with similar birthdays. These children were from the BabyBoom.  A family might not wanted to share a date with other boys.

More observant families would more likely have the service the week of the birthday.

I never saw a bar mitzvah announced in a New York paper.  

Things would be different in each area.


Jessica Schein
NYC


Sarah L Meyer
 

Our son was born on Jun 30, 1976, but because that was the summer that my daughter was in Israel and my husband did biological research every summer, we postponed the ceremony until Labor Day weekend (September),  However I did take him to shul the weekend following his Hebrew birthday so that he could have an aliyah.  
--
Sarah L Meyer
Georgetown TX
ANK(I)ER, BIGOS, KARMELEK, PERLSTADT, STOKFISZ, SZPIL(T)BAUM, Poland
BIRGARDOVSKY, EDELBERG, HITE (CHAIT), PERCHIK Russia (southern Ukraine) and some Latvia or Lithuania
https://www.sarahsgenies.com


fredelfruhman
 

There can be a big difference between when a Bar Mitzvah was actually celebrated, and the correct date according to Halacha.

There is also a difference bet
ween a bar mitzvah celebration (party), and the day when the boy was (or, should have been) called up to the Torah.

And, as someone pointed out, it
would depend upon the level of observance of the particular family.

I am replying as the daughter of a teacher
who prepared many boys for their bar mitzvahs.  (I have not looked at the Chabad website, so some of what I am about to write might be a duplication.). 

The secular date of birth
was given as August 17, 1948.  One piece of information that would have been necessary in order to find the corresponding Hebrew date was the time of day that the boy was born.  Using the website hebcal.com, mentioned by others, the Hebrew date is the 12th of Av if he was born before sunset, and the 13th of Av if he was born after sunset, as Hebrew "days" run from sunset to sunset, not midnight to midnight.  The Hebrew year was 5708.  Thirteen years later was 1961, or 5721 in the Hebrew calendar.  Again using hebcal, it can be seen that the 12th of Av, 5721 was July 25th, 1961, and the 13th of Av was July 26th.  These were a Tuesday and Wednesday.  The bar mitzvah day is not the "closest" Sabbath, but the first Sabbath after the 13th birthday.  That Sabbath was July 29th.  This is the simple answer to the question posed.

I
would like to add a few points.  I remember learning that it was important to make sure that 13 complete years had passed, so that the boy could be counted as part of a Minyan (quorum of 10 necessary for communal prayer) and thus could be called up to the Torah.  Therefore, if his 13th Hebrew birthday happened to fall on a Sabbath, his bar mitzvah would be a week later, on the following Sabbath.  I also want to point out that, even though most bar mitzvahs are celebrated on the Sabbath, a bar mitzvah can be celebrated on any day when the Torah is read.  This occurs weekly on Mondays and Thursdays, and also on a number of holidays, including "Rosh Chodesh", the start of a new Hebrew month.  One need only go to the Kotel (western wall) in Jerusalem on any Monday or Thursday to see many simultaneous bar mitzvah celebrations.
--
Fredel Fruhman
Brooklyn, New York, USA


Lin Mor
 

After reading the responses posted after my posting, out of curiosity, I looked up the Bar Mitzvah date for my dad. Born 12/16/1920 before sunset which is Tevet 5, 5681.  The circumstances of his Bar Mitzvah were that his oldest brother was getting married! The wedding day was January 6, 1934 (Tevet 19, 5694), a Sunday. The day before, Tevet 18, 5694 was the date of his Bar Mitzvah - I have dated photos. My paternal grandparents were Orthodox and followed the rules and laws closely almost all of the time. In this case, they did not. It seems that one weekend of festivities took place while everyone was "in town." 

Linda Cohen Morzillo
Saratoga Springs, NY


Jx. Gx.
 

Hello Fredel Fruhman.  Thank you for your very detailed and informative explanation about finding out the correct Halacha Hebrew date for my late cousin's Bar Mitzvah. The Chabad site asked for the time of day that he was born, but I did not have that information, which may have been the reason its calculation was slightly off.  I knew the occasion was on a Saturday and since the hebcal and Chabad calculations were only a couple days apart I took the closest shabbat after those days, which was after his 13th Hebrew birthday. That came out to be July 29th. (I neglected to mention in my posting the "after" part.) As you correctly indicated this isn't the correct methodology and won't work in every case because there are other factors in play as pointed out by yourself and several other people.

Once again, you have helped and I appreciate it very much.

Jeffrey Gee
Arizona    


A. E. Jordan
 

I have seen the back and forth discussion on the topic if dates for a Bar Mitzvah.

I would not get so worked up about the specifics unless maybe the family was Orthodox.

Caveat my family was anything but Orthodox,,,,

My 13th birthday fell (like all the other years of my life) in the middle of the summer but my Bar Mitzvah was two months before my birthday in the spring. At the time, I remember my mother saying it was because it would have been in the height of the summer and something about that being a problem with the temple but now I realize it would have interrupted their plans for a summer holiday. The Rabbi was a friend of the family and so I was Bar Mitzvahed two months early. Also since I am totally challenged when it comes to singing, and the Cantor could not stand it, I more chanted and he sung. I actually saw the man just a few years ago because he did the funeral for my mother and he complimented our spoken Hebrew and I said we had a good teacher. I guess he forgot after all these years how bad my singing was in this practice/teaching sessions.

I am sure I am not the only boy that had his date moved to fit schedules. I am sure my Orthodox cousin would be upset (did not know him all those years ago) but my family did not see a problem and that's how it happened for me in the 1970s.

Allan Jordan
New York





paveanyu@...
 

Dear Everyone              11th may 2021

I have read -with great interest the various different thoughts about the Bar-Mitzvah date?----Birthdate?
Jewish ?/and Secular Calendar.?

As a mother and grandmother-
who have had the blessing, honour to celebrate my children/grandchildren's Bar Mitzvah
Please allow me to record my thoughts.

Recorded Baby-boy's  birth-
Secular date 17th August 1948---corresponding to Jewish Calendar:   12th Av 5709
In my  view as we belong to the Jewish faith --especially in respect of a Jewish tradition--Bar Mitzvah 
The Jewish Birthdate is the significant  Date of Birth.

Thirteen years later: The Bar Mitzvah date : the 12th Av 5722---corresponds to 25th July 1961

Therefore the now young boy--
who was born on the 12th Av 5709---will be --age 13 --Be Bar Mitzvah
                      on the 12th Av  5722-
-which happen to be --the 25th July 1961.

There is generally a Seuda-/Dinner -with family friends and Rabbonim --in this case on the 12th Av 5722
The BarMitzvah boy will put on Teffilin--the first time--with his Rabbi and father

On Shabboth--the BarMitzvah Boy is 'called up'  the first time as an 'adult'   to the Safer Torah and
often  does the Leyning/reading  of 'His Sedra'  /the Sedra of the BarMitzvah week

Wishing Everybody lots of Simcha's and Blessed healthy years ahead.

Veronika Pachtinger
London UK.


David Seldner
 

A Bar Mitsva - the event - is a traditon which is a few hundred years old.
When the boy turns 13 (according to the Jewish calendar) or a girl tuns 12, he/she are "off age". responsible for their doing, obliged to follow the mitsvot.
A boy who is 13 years old also counts for the minyan (I am not talking about Reform Judaism, this came up "only" a few hundred years ago) and as a symbol he reads a part (maftir) from the weekly Torah portion.
Also, traditionally, he has to lay t'fillin before that. As a consequence: As soon as he is 13 years old he demonstrates his status by laying t'fillin in the synagogue and on the following Shabbat he shows that he is also permitted to read from the Torah. This is called "Bar Mitsva". But halakhically it has no meaning. Of course a Bar Mitsva can also be held later (but not earlier). Veronika Pachtinger explained it very nicely (unfortunately I saw her post when I had almost finished mine).

In my certificate of the Brit Milla is even written when my Bar Mitsva is - the portion of the Tora. But I had it one week later, I do not know why and when I asked the cantor 20 years later he couldn't remember. My guess is that the portion I had to read was pretty lengthy, so he set the date a week later. The reading was not all that difficult.

On which day the boy turns 13 can easily be calculated by converting the Gregorian date of birth to the Jewish one.

I  hope this explains the situation a bit.

David Seldner, Karlsruhe, Germany
seldner@...


David Ziants
 

A lot of details have been given on this thread concerning the orthodox and traditional way of doing things, and I want to add some more insights regarding this.

A) As someone correctly pointed out, also within orthodox Judaism, the concept of having a big party and the bar mitzva boy reading from the Torah and/or being called up for maphtir (i.e saying the haphtara) is relatively recent - maybe a few hundred years. Also among some  Eastern Sephardi communities (Aidot HaMizrach), a child from the age of nine or ten is already allowed to be called up for maphtir and say the haphtara, so this would not be a great deal with respect to Bar Mitzva which is age of 13, and the honors for a bar-mitzva boy in these communities is more towards reading from the Torah or leading the prayers.  

B) With regards to the party, then among the very orthodox and now-a-days this is becoming more main-stream, it has become common place to make the main party on the Hebrew birthday date itself. Then the first call up, might be the next Monday or Thursday depending on the day of the week (or Rosh Hodesh) as has already been mentioned - and with this maybe a small celebration.

C) During the last Corona year with the uncertainties involved, I have seen a few bar-mitzva boys from "Rabbinical" families, make do with a simple call up on Shabbat so they should not spend hours learning to read the parsha from the Torah only to find the Health regulations, when the day arrives, not allowing to have a minyan (quorum of ten men).

D) On a personal note - I was brought up in a household that kind of defined itself as "semi-traditional". So, the issues that bothered my parents, in the early 1970s in London,UK,  were:-

1) I was born on what is last day of Pesach in the diaspora. The issue was that the Rabbi's son was born a day or so after me, and my parent's realized that I would be completely out shadowed if I was called up on the next Shabbat.

2) It was expected that the main celebration would be on the Sunday following the Shabbat that I was being called up, since there were people coming from out of town and would be staying a few nights in London.

3) In England, it is the primary custom to keep the semi-mourning period of the Omer starting from the first day of Iyar, with a break on the semi-festival of lag ba'omer (33rd day of the Counting of the Omer). This would mean, that the main celebration (which to a certain extent had to conform to the religious issues) could not take place on this delayed date, as they wanted a band because that is what "everyone else" does. 

4) So in the end, I was called up on the Shabbat preceding lag ba'omer and the main party was on lag ba'omer which was a Sunday that year.

Although, from my parents' point of view they wanted to give as much honor to the situation as they could, if I was in charge as a parent as I am now, I would have made the flow a whole lot simpler, regardless of with whom a bar-mitzva shabbat might be shared or how to schedule the party. I was at a bar-mitzva party once, that was during the mourning period of the Omer, and instead of a band, there were "Swingle Singers" who enhanced the occasion.
 
--
David Ziants

Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel